Anyone Using an A-P Mount and TheSkyX?

If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

Thanks!

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 8:34:51 AM UTC-4, Davoud wrote:
If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

Thanks!


Your mount is a german equatorial. There are two ways to orient the mount to make the scope point at a given location in the sky.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 06:12:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 8:34:51 AM UTC-4, Davoud wrote:
If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

Thanks!


Your mount is a german equatorial. There are two ways to orient the mount to make the scope point at a given location in the sky.

I'm sure he knows that. It's a regular problem with GEMs that the
mount and the control software disagree about whether the scope is on
the east or west side of the pier. It turns out to be a bit tricky in
many cases to figure that out from the information that the mount
provides. This generates quite a few discussions on software
development sites, with various mounts as well as various software.

It can be important in order to determine camera rotation, find guide
stars, detect automatic pier flips, position the dome slot, and other
reasons as well.

Davoud:
If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

Chris L Peterson:
I'm sure he knows that. It's a regular problem with GEMs that the
mount and the control software disagree about whether the scope is on
the east or west side of the pier. It turns out to be a bit tricky in
many cases to figure that out from the information that the mount
provides. This generates quite a few discussions on software
development sites, with various mounts as well as various software.

Indeed. You know me, OS agnostic, so I booted Win 7 Pro and connected
to the mount with TheSkyX Pro for Windows (Bisque sells a
multi-platform, multi computer license).

The result was the same: TheSkyX Pro for Windows reports the OTA is on
the east side of the pier. I can't test TheSkyX GOTOs until the real
sky clears, probably just before Judgement Day.

As for discussions on software development sites, to the limited extent
that I am qualified to comprehend this material, I get the impression
that the problem is in what the mount reports, not in TheSkyX. Daniel
Bisque wrote "'TheSkyX is asking the AP mount "what side of the pier is
the OTA on?' (via the S# command) and the mount is responding: 'The
OTA is on the East side' (East#)."
http://www.bisque.com/sc/forums/t/10841.aspx

Now, with the Mac and Windows code for TheSkyX being very nearly
identical, and developed in parallel, it /could/ happen that the same
bug appears in both versions. But I don't think so. I think Daniel is
right‹the A-P mount is sending bad data.

Possible fix: I have on order the new A-P GTOCP4 Control Box, scheduled
for May delivery, and I hope it has a fix this problem. With the
GTOCP4, A-P has simultaneously discovered WiFi (public in 1997),
Ethernet (PARC, 1974), and USB (1998, first used on the iMac, and
subject of much derision, because "the RS-232 serial port (1962) will
never be replaced."

*****

As for Snell, who has been in my kill-file since The Singularity, the
man is brilliant. He wrote "Your mount is a german [sic] equatorial.
There are two ways to orient the mount to make the scope point at a
given location in the sky" Firstly, he enlightened me. I had thought
that a GEM was the same as a Dob push-to. Secondly, his epiphany that
"there are two ways to orient the mount" implies that the Earth has an
an axis of rotation and four cardinal directions, and if that is true,
then both Earth and sky can have coordinate systems that allow
locations to be specified unambiguously with just two simple sets of
numbers; furthermore that a GEM in fact has /two/ rotation axes. The
man is a /genio/ /assoluto/ !

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

The point of view is that magnification is dominated by celestial sphere enthusiasts rather than cultists which,I suppose, is good news for fidgety guys taking their telescopes out at night. It is far below geocentricity by virtue that a rotating celestial sphere is imposed on the Earth's rotation hence these Equatorial mounts create their own homocentric axis despite the prevailing notion that the Earth rotation scales up to a rotating celestial sphere -

"In astronomical telescope mounts, the equatorial axis (the right ascension) is paired with a second perpendicular axis of motion (known as the declination). The equatorial axis of the mount is often equipped with a motorized "clock drive", that rotates that axis one revolution every 23 hours and 56 minutes in exact sync with the apparent diurnal motion of the sky" Wikipedia article on Equatorial mounts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equato...uatorial_mount

The underlying issue is keeping the magnification hobbyists happy with their calendar based RA/Dec framework while forcibly breaking their addiction to celestial sphere ideologies which is hollowing out astronomy where the connections between planetary motions and terrestrial sciences are involved.

The antidote for a celestial sphere addiction is to appreciate how the orbital motion of the Earth creates the line-of-sight disappearance and re-appearance of the stars behind the central Sun as we move around the Sun and how this observation looks like from the surface of the Earth -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Imagine the Earth as a spacecraft if necessary travelling through space as anything is better than dumping everything into a rotating celestial sphere cistern.

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 7:34:51 AM UTC-5, Davoud wrote:
If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

Thanks!

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Park 1 is at the Meridian pointing to the Northern Horizon. The moment that you start the mount tracking, it will track past the meridian and the telescope will indeed be on the east side of the meridian. Yes, it's on the west side physically, but the tube assembly is now underneath the mount (counterweights are slightly above), and the optics will be pointing to the eastern portion of the horizon.

On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 1:04:12 PM UTC-5, SlurpieMcDoublegulp wrote:
On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 7:34:51 AM UTC-5, Davoud wrote:
If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

Thanks!

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Park 1 is at the Meridian pointing to the Northern Horizon. The moment that you start the mount tracking, it will track past the meridian and the telescope will indeed be on the east side of the meridian. Yes, it's on the west side physically, but the tube assembly is now underneath the mount (counterweights are slightly above), and the optics will be pointing to the eastern portion of the horizon.

Actually I was wrong about this. Pier side is a convention that was made by the professional astronomy community many many years ago, well before the age of amateur GoTo mounts. Basically it has to do with whether the Declination number is positive or negative. For all positive Dec numbers with the scope on the West side, your planetarium program (TheSkyX Pro) will declare that the scope is on the west side. For all negative Dec numbers - basically all numbers below the pole - TheSkyX will declare the scope to be on the East side.

Davoud:
If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

SlurpieMcDoublegulp:
Park 1 is at the Meridian pointing to the Northern Horizon. The moment that
you start the mount tracking, it will track past the meridian and the
telescope will indeed be on the east side of the meridian. Yes, it's on the
west side physically, but the tube assembly is now underneath the mount
(counterweights are slightly above), and the optics will be pointing to the
eastern portion of the horizon.

Actually I was wrong about this. Pier side is a convention that was made by
the professional astronomy community many many years ago, well before the age
of amateur GoTo mounts. Basically it has to do with whether the Declination
number is positive or negative. For all positive Dec numbers with the scope
on the West side, your planetarium program (TheSkyX Pro) will declare that
the scope is on the west side. For all negative Dec numbers - basically all
numbers below the pole - TheSkyX will declare the scope to be on the East side.

OK, here's what's really happening as I have learned just today.
Firstly, TheSkyX does not declare anything. It gets a piece of data
from the A-P hand controller that says either "east" or "west." TheSkyX
merely repeats what it has been told. At least one of your statements
above is true.

But that's not the important thing. The important thing is that
Astro-Physics has released the following in a PDF
http://www.astro-physics.com/images/Park_Positions_Defined.pdf:
"WARNING! Park 1 is considered an obsolete park position. Use Park 1 at
your own risk!" and "[Park 4] is the new Reference Park Position."

This is most unfortunate for me, as my observatory is very small
(2-meter dome) and Park 1, which was sanctioned by Astro-Physics for
many years, was the only position that gave me sufficient space to
comfortably place a small laptop table (fold-up, but sturdy,
slide-projector stand from 1976!) and a small stool for my comfort. I
used Park 1 with-and-without a computer for many years with no
problems. I have no idea why Park 1 is suddenly Bad, but if I had to
guess I would say a bug in recent hand controller software. I know that
the software has a leap-year bug that affected Park 1 from 1 January to
1 March.

In any case, I'm going to have to do some re-thinking, including how
I'll get through my main (north side) door without bashing my face on
my camera http://www.primordial-light.com/observatory.html.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 9:04:29 PM UTC-5, Davoud wrote:
Davoud:
If so, you may be able to tell me why TheSkyX Pro (latest daily build
running on the latest El Capitan) reports that the OTA is on the east
side of the mount immediately after resuming from Park 1, when the OTA
is most definitely on the west side of the mount. I don't know if it's
the mount reporting its position improperly or the TheSkyX being
confused. I suspect the latter, as GOTO works from the A-P
keypad--indicating that the A-P knows where it is. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it is properly reporting what it knows to
TheSkyX.

SlurpieMcDoublegulp:
Park 1 is at the Meridian pointing to the Northern Horizon. The moment that
you start the mount tracking, it will track past the meridian and the
telescope will indeed be on the east side of the meridian. Yes, it's on the
west side physically, but the tube assembly is now underneath the mount
(counterweights are slightly above), and the optics will be pointing to the
eastern portion of the horizon.

Actually I was wrong about this. Pier side is a convention that was made by
the professional astronomy community many many years ago, well before the age
of amateur GoTo mounts. Basically it has to do with whether the Declination
number is positive or negative. For all positive Dec numbers with the scope
on the West side, your planetarium program (TheSkyX Pro) will declare that
the scope is on the west side. For all negative Dec numbers - basically all
numbers below the pole - TheSkyX will declare the scope to be on the East side.

OK, here's what's really happening as I have learned just today.
Firstly, TheSkyX does not declare anything. It gets a piece of data
from the A-P hand controller that says either "east" or "west." TheSkyX
merely repeats what it has been told. At least one of your statements
above is true.

But that's not the important thing. The important thing is that
Astro-Physics has released the following in a PDF
http://www.astro-physics.com/images/Park_Positions_Defined.pdf:
"WARNING! Park 1 is considered an obsolete park position. Use Park 1 at
your own risk!" and "[Park 4] is the new Reference Park Position."

This is most unfortunate for me, as my observatory is very small
(2-meter dome) and Park 1, which was sanctioned by Astro-Physics for
many years, was the only position that gave me sufficient space to
comfortably place a small laptop table (fold-up, but sturdy,
slide-projector stand from 1976!) and a small stool for my comfort. I
used Park 1 with-and-without a computer for many years with no
problems. I have no idea why Park 1 is suddenly Bad, but if I had to
guess I would say a bug in recent hand controller software. I know that
the software has a leap-year bug that affected Park 1 from 1 January to
1 March.

In any case, I'm going to have to do some re-thinking, including how
I'll get through my main (north side) door without bashing my face on
my camera http://www.primordial-light.com/observatory.html.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

You can use Park 1, I use it all the time. It is NOT obsolete, just not recommended due to sensitivity to user error. You just have to remember that once you start the mount, it will begin to track at the sidereal rate. If you walk away or fall asleep, eventually the scope can be driven into the mount. If you keep your clutches somewhat loose, nothing bad will happen. The RA axis will simply slip when the scope cannot go any further. However with clutches fully tight you might damage the scope or mount when contact is made.

The Leap year bug in the keypad is fixed, so nothing to worry about there either.

On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 9:04:29 PM UTC-5, Davoud wrote:
Davoud:

"OK, here's what's really happening as I have learned just today.
Firstly, TheSkyX does not declare anything. It gets a piece of data
from the A-P hand controller that says either "east" or "west." TheSkyX
merely repeats what it has been told. At least one of your statements
above is true."

The keypad does not send anything to any other software. The keypad is irrelevant to the operation of the mount. It is simply a database planetarium program without the charts.

When TheSkyX queries the mount for scope position, the mount servo sends the pier side according to the Declination sign. The mount servo does not have a readout, so it cannot declare anything for you to read. Therefore the pier side declaration is done by TheSkyX so you read it on your laptop screen.