Science and Religious belief

A very, very large reason why our country is so mixed up is the transposition of personal belief into public policy, and inversion of reason into a subjective choice. Religious belief is meant to be strictly personal, an experience unique to each person (either as a believer or a non-believer) with the freedom to reach as many different personal conclusions as there are people, because it is by definition a subjective experience.

The two most influential factors determining one's spiritual beliefs are where you are born and your family's worldview.

Science is meant to be a unifying approach to thought and reason, enabling all different people to reach comparable conclusions. The two most important factors in ones ability to reason are education and religion.

Spirituality is specifically designed to be a personal journey, where as science and reason are meant to be journeys common to all. The consequences of confusing these two experiences (spirituality and reason) is the imposition of personal belief into public policy (Indiana legislating the right to discriminate against LGBT's) and the relegation of reason to become merely a personal choice (climate change denial, rejection of human evolution). We are losing both our moral compass and our ability to reason with one another. Our country, and the entire world is suffering profound consequences as a result of these fundamental mistakes.

On 3/31/15 1:09 PM, Uncarollo2 wrote:
A very, very large reason why our country is so mixed up is the
transposition of personal belief into public policy, and inversion of
reason into a subjective choice. Religious belief is meant to be
strictly personal, an experience unique to each person (either as a
believer or a non-believer) with the freedom to reach as many
different personal conclusions as there are people, because it is by
definition a subjective experience.

The two most influential factors determining one's spiritual beliefs
are where you are born and your family's worldview.

Science is meant to be a unifying approach to thought and reason,
enabling all different people to reach comparable conclusions. The
two most important factors in ones ability to reason are education
and religion.

Spirituality is specifically designed to be a personal journey, where
as science and reason are meant to be journeys common to all. The
consequences of confusing these two experiences (spirituality and
reason) is the imposition of personal belief into public policy
(Indiana legislating the right to discriminate against LGBT's) and
the relegation of reason to become merely a personal choice (climate
change denial, rejection of human evolution). We are losing both our
moral compass and our ability to reason with one another. Our
country, and the entire world is suffering profound consequences as a
result of these fundamental mistakes.


Good Post.

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 1:09:37 PM UTC-5, Uncarollo2 wrote:
A very, very large reason why our country is so mixed up is the transposition of personal belief into public policy, and inversion of reason into a subjective choice. Religious belief is meant to be strictly personal, an experience unique to each person (either as a believer or a non-believer) with the freedom to reach as many different personal conclusions as there are people, because it is by definition a subjective experience.

The two most influential factors determining one's spiritual beliefs are where you are born and your family's worldview.

Science is meant to be a unifying approach to thought and reason, enabling all different people to reach comparable conclusions. The two most important factors in ones ability to reason are education and religion.

Spirituality is specifically designed to be a personal journey, where as science and reason are meant to be journeys common to all. The consequences of confusing these two experiences (spirituality and reason) is the imposition of personal belief into public policy (Indiana legislating the right to discriminate against LGBT's) and the relegation of reason to become merely a personal choice (climate change denial, rejection of human evolution). We are losing both our moral compass and our ability to reason with one another. Our country, and the entire world is suffering profound consequences as a result of these fundamental mistakes.

Here is what happens when religion is used to justify political actions:

Since day one in this country, religion has been used as justification for discrimination of one form or enough another. Some key events begin in the early 1600s with the systematic extermination and expulsion of the Godless heathens known as Native Americans, culminating in 1830 with the Trail of Tears.

In the late 1600s, it was non-conformists to the religious laws and women who attempted to object to repression, ultimately leading to the infamous Salem Witch trials of the 1690s. The belief that they were tied directly to the Satanical world and posed a threat to Christianity, was justification for horrific punishment.

In the 1700s, we began the practice of slavery capturing Blacks in Africa and bringing them to America as slaves. They too were often called Godless heathens and many biblical passages were frequently used to justify the practice of slavery. It came to a head in the 1860s with the civil war.

In the late 1800s it was women seeking fairness, basic rights and some level of equality. Religion again, citing many biblical passages, was used to justify their subservience. They got the right to vote in 1920.

In the 1950s and 1960s, Blacks were targeted again and religion again was used to justify segregation and repression of their rights. It took the Civil Rights Act in 1964 to end this practice.

All the above groups, even to today still suffer from forms of cleverly cloaked discrimination, much of which is still deeply rooted in religious beliefs.

A much smaller group of individuals, homosexuals, have always suffered discrimination deeply rooted and justified in religion. These "abominations to God" have had to hide in the shadows and deny their own existence for fear of persecution and even prosecution and worse. It is finally coming to a head today and religious zealots are fighting it with justifications based on religious beliefs.

It's time we ended this insanity of using religion as an excuse to repress, persecute and discriminate against groups of fellow human beings, just seeking a little fairness and freedom to enjoy the rights guaranteed to all citizens. When we started this nation, why did we even talk about rights endowed by our Creator or say that all men are created equal, if we didn't really mean it?

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:09:37 PM UTC+1, Uncarollo2 wrote:
A very, very large reason why our country is so mixed up ....

You can't manage to handle the most immediate experience of astronomy as it links in with terrestrial science !. Let me show you what is mixed up -

"During one orbit around the Sun, Earth rotates about its own axis 366.26 times" Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

A bunch of middle class thugs pushing a doom laden 'denial' agenda while being unable to make sense of the most simple experiences known to all lifeforms as they respond to the rotation of this magnificent planet.

To be spiritual means to be creative,productive and elevate all that is good in human endeavors whereas you miserable empirical drones diminish all that is good about human achievement and especially in astronomical affairs.

On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:09:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncarollo2
wrote:

Spirituality is specifically designed to be a personal journey, where as science and reason are meant to be journeys common to all. The consequences of confusing these two experiences (spirituality and reason) is the imposition of personal belief into public policy (Indiana legislating the right to discriminate against LGBT's) and the relegation of reason to become merely a personal choice (climate change denial, rejection of human evolution). We are losing both our moral compass and our ability to reason with one another. Our country, and the entire world is suffering profound consequences as a result of these fundamental mistakes.

I'm not sure we're losing our moral compass. At a national level,
we're losing our freedom, democratic operation, and wise government.
But at an individual level, I think people's moral development is at
an all time high, and improving all the time.

Our fundamental problem isn't with morality, but with the loss of
rationality.

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 12:09:37 PM UTC-6, Uncarollo2 wrote:
Religious belief is meant to be strictly personal,

Meant by whom?

While I agree in general with the sentiments expressed in your post, you are
missing some nuances.

The First Amendment embodies a basic principle required for people who have
different religious beliefs to live alongside one another in peace. They need
to acknowledge the right of other people to have different beliefs, and people
of all faiths must be equal under the law.

So far, so good.

But what the First Amendment does _not_ do is permit one to impose a
reasonableness test for religious beliefs. You can't have equal rights for
mainstream churches, and a law against Fundamentalism.

The right to make up your own mind about things... means that the government
can't prevent you from making mistakes and coming to wrong conclusions. It is
dismaying that there are people in this day and age who deny evolution by
natural selection, but the solution is not to wage war on them.

John Savard

compulsory respect for superstition propaganda
+ compulsory respect for brutal parental brainwashing
+ compulsory respect for corrupt organised hypocrisy
+ compulsory respect for organised psychopathy
+ compulsory respect for corrupt education
+ compulsory respect for irrationality
+ compulsory blasphemy clause
= Evil^n
= human history
= 0

QED

You do the maths.

On 01/04/2015 06:24, Quadibloc wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 12:09:37 PM UTC-6, Uncarollo2 wrote:

Religious belief is meant to be strictly personal,

Meant by whom?

While I agree in general with the sentiments expressed in your post, you are
missing some nuances.

The First Amendment embodies a basic principle required for people who have
different religious beliefs to live alongside one another in peace. They need
to acknowledge the right of other people to have different beliefs, and people
of all faiths must be equal under the law.

So far, so good.

But what the First Amendment does _not_ do is permit one to impose a
reasonableness test for religious beliefs. You can't have equal rights for
mainstream churches, and a law against Fundamentalism.

You can't outlaw them, but you can do everything within your power to
stop them recruiting and brainwashing the next generation.

There is a serious problem with several religions all claiming to
worship "the *ONE* and only *TRUE* God" - they can't all be right. Well
actually they could be but their followers never see it that way.

How do you adjudicate turf wars between competing fundamentalist
religions whose followers do not tolerate any other beliefs?

BTW Have you forgotten the McCarthy witch hunts? The US can be extremely
intolerant of people with non mainstream political views.

The "Land of the Free" today has more people locked up in prison per
capita than even the most repressive regimes like Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._worldwide.gif

The right to make up your own mind about things... means that the government
can't prevent you from making mistakes and coming to wrong conclusions. It is
dismaying that there are people in this day and age who deny evolution by
natural selection, but the solution is not to wage war on them.

But what are we supposed to do if they want to start a third world war
in the Middle East to bring about "The End Times" and "The Rapture" ?

I honestly don't think you *CAN* allow a fundamentalist religious nutter
with a medieval mindset to become US President and have his finger on
the big red nuclear button in the White House.

Some of the more hawkish Neocons definitely have this mindset.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 1:24:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 12:09:37 PM UTC-6, Uncarollo2 wrote:
Religious belief is meant to be strictly personal,

Meant by whom?

edit

unkaroller, wurmlee, petersout, chrizbee, mb, all seem to be socialists in favor of having their governments control and dictate not only most actions but also all thought and speech with which they disagree.

Were the governmental machinery for such control to be put in place, then we would all be at the mercy of whoever managed to gain control of that machinery.

Inevitably, a new, perhaps permanent, dark age would descend upon humanity. None of the above posters have the foresight needed to be aware of that danger.

wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 1:24:23 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 12:09:37 PM UTC-6, Uncarollo2 wrote:
Religious belief is meant to be strictly personal,

Meant by whom?

edit

unkaroller, wurmlee, petersout, chrizbee, mb, all seem to be socialists
in favor of having their governments control and dictate not only most
actions but also all thought and speech with which they disagree.

Were the governmental machinery for such control to be put in place, then
we would all be at the mercy of whoever managed to gain control of that machinery.

Inevitably, a new, perhaps permanent, dark age would descend upon
humanity. None of the above posters have the foresight needed to be aware of that danger.

Careful! You're descending into madness.
The religious right would love that kind of thought control. The closest
you have at the moment is called advertising and you use it to select your
government.