Astral form discovered a hundred years ago!

Chapter 1.
The Good News According to John 14,2
In my Fathers NG are many loonies.

Seasons greetings and a merry solstice one and all (except min)

jc



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Well if you want to go theoretic.... Just like gene carry info about body
structure, electron or even photon thoeretically can contain soul.


"Majestik" wrote in message
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Thesis on MacDougall Space and the Astral Form.

Chapter 1.
The Good News According to John 14,2
In my Fathers house are many mansions.

Duncan MacDougall MD in 1907 wrote "If personal continuity after
the event of bodily death is a fact [1], if the psychic functions
continue to exist as a separate individual or personality after
the death of brain and body, then such personality can only exist
as a space occupying body, unless the relations between space
objective and space notions in our consciousness, established in
our consciousness by heredity and experience, are entirely wiped
out at death and a new set of relations between space and
consciousness suddenly established in the continuing
personality. This would be an unimaginable breach in the
continuity of nature. It is unthinkable that personality and
consciousness continuing personal identity should exist, and have
being, and yet not occupy space. It is impossible to represent in
thought that which is not space-occupying, as having personality;
for that would be equivalent to thinking that nothing had become
or was something, that emptiness had personality, that space
itself was more than space, all of which are contradictions and
absurd."

We begin with MacDougall rationalizing space as if analogous with
n-dimensional form and "nothing" as that which is "not
space-occupying". In MacDougalls black and white universe all
that is created exists within the manifold of space. Nothing may
come from nothingness, not even quantum mechanical virtual
particles. All that has form has origins in form [2]. With his
black and white rationale he goes on to add "Since therefore it is
necessary to the continuance of conscious life and personal
identity after death, that they must have for a basis that which
is space-occupying, or substance, the question arises has this
substance weight, is it ponderable?" Well it is certainly
ponderable in terms of MacDougall space form. Whether it has
weight (mass) and other properties will depend exactly on how this
"personality" (or Astral) form "hooks" onto MacDougall space
form. Properties such as weight and force are the result of form
interacting with form by means of hooks built into the form. All
of physics and chemistry describes the world in this way
ultimately. As it turns out the Astral form may indeed have hooks
into "our world" that give it mass and weight thus bringing us
some small way towards a determination in regard of supposition
[1].



Thesis on MacDougall Space and the Astral Form.

Chapter 2.
The Good News According to Mark 13,10
The Good News must first be preached to all the nations. When they
lead you away and deliver you up, don't be anxious beforehand, or
premeditate what you will say, but say whatever will be given you
in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

MacDougall writes; "The essential thing is that there must be a
substance as the basis of continuing personal identity and
consciousness, for without space-occupying substance, personality
or a continuing conscious ego after bodily death is unthinkable."
In MacDougall Space, itself a form or hyper-form if you like no
thing ever comes from nothing but all things are built from forms.
In MacDougalls original 1907 thesis form from nothing as per QM is
precluded by supposition [2]. That is not to say that all of QM is
erroneous but just that MacDougall Space is totally embracing, it
is the super-space-form of all space-form, a hyper form.
So-called space-time (a super-form) and false vacuum yet another
example of a super-form are "inferior" to the hyper-form. In this
rationale it is clear that the MacDougal Space form must have
pre-existed in order for any BB to manifest. Incidently space-time
is not actually a single super-form per se. It is a result of two
super-forms, space and time. The time super-form unlike any other
form is "constructed" entirely of specialized time-form linking
hooks only. Space-forms and matter-forms may have time-form
linking hooks in addition to whatever other hooks they have.
Consider if the time-form was exclusively a part of the space-form
as in the erroneously hypothesised "space-time" then how could
other forms exclusively lock with the time super-form? Quantum
entanglement could not happen without an independant time
super-form. The Copenhagen interpretation could not be possible
without an independant time super-form. You get the picture.

"According to the latest conception of science, substance, or
space-occupying material, is divisible into that which is
gravitative, solids, liquids, gases, all having weight, and the
ether which is nongravitative. It seemed impossible to me that the
soul substance could consist of the ether. If the conception is
true that ether is continuous and not to be conceived of as
existing or capable of existing in separate masses, we have here
the most solid ground for believing that the soul substance we are
seeking is not ether, because one of the very first attributes of
personal identity is the quality of separateness." So, MacDougall
stuck inside 19th Century physics considers the aether (a
super-form) and concludes that the soul or Astral form being
discrete cannot be of the all pervading superform aether
variety. Very astute of him. So much for the "super-conscious" or
communal all pervading variety of "godliness" favoured by hippies
and some eastern dogmas.

"Nothing is more borne in upon consciousness, than that the ego is
detached and separate from all things else - the nonego. We are
therefore driven back upon the assumption that the soul substance
so necessary to the conception of continuing personal identity,
after the death of this material body, must still be a form of
gravitative matter, or perhaps a middle form of substance neither
gravitative matter or ether, not capable of being weighed, and yet
not identical with ether." Ok so MacDougall admits he doesn't
know exactly what type of "matter" his "continuing personal
identity" the Astral Form takes. As previously described in part
1 this is purely a function of hooks that a form presents to other
forms. Consider three different forms A,B and C. Forms A and B may
interelate with each other in a way that is different to that
which A and C may relate. Take magnetic and non-magnetic
materials as a simple illustration of how forms may provide
different hooks. Whether one form detects another form is entirely
a function of what hooks they have or "share" between them.

"Since however the substance considered in our hypothesis is
linked organically with the body until death takes place, it
appears to me more reasonable to think that it must be some form
of gravitative matter, and therefore capable of being detected at
death by weighing a human being in the act of death." Organic
human forms are well endowed with "mass" hooks and it is no
surprise that MacDougall should have looked there first in his
attempts to locate the human soul, the Astral Form. In the next
part I shall describe MacDougalls experiments where he determines
the weight (in Earths gravity) of the Astral Form.



Thesis on MacDougall Space and the Astral Form

Chapter 3.
The Good News According to Mark 4,4
He said to them, Take heed what you hear. With whatever measure
you measure, it will be measured to you, and more will be given to
you who hear. For whoever has, to him will more be given, and he
who doesn't have, from him will be taken away even that which he
has.

Experiments conducted by Duncan MacDougall in 1907 in order to
determine the weight of a human soul (Astral Form).

"My first subject was a man dying of tuberculosis. It seemed to me
best to select a patient dying with a disease that produces great
exhaustion, the death occurring with little or no muscular
movement, because in such a case the beam could be kept more
perfectly at balance and any loss occurring readily noted. The
patient was under observation for three hours and forty minutes
before death, lying on a bed arranged on a light framework built
upon very delicately balanced platform beam scales. The patient's
comfort was looked after in every way, although he was practically
moribund when placed upon the bed. He lost weight slowly at the
rate of one ounce per hour due to evaporation of moisture in
respiration and evaporation of sweat. During all three hours and
forty minutes I kept the beam end slightly above balance near the
upper limiting bar in order to make the test more decisive if it
should come. At the end of three hours and forty minutes he
expired and suddenly coincident with death the beam end dropped
with an audible stroke hitting against the lower limiting bar and
remaining there with no rebound. The loss was ascertained to be
three-fourths of an ounce." This loss of weight could not be due
to evaporation of respiratory moisture and sweat, because that had
already been determined to go on, in his case, at the rate of one
sixtieth of an ounce per minute, whereas this loss was sudden and
large, three-fourths of an ounce in a few seconds. The bowels did
not move; if they had moved the weight would still have remained
upon the bed except for a slow loss by the evaporation of moisture
depending, of course, upon the fluidity of the feces. The bladder
evacuated one or two drams of urine. This remained upon the bed
and could only have influenced the weight by slow gradual
evaporation and therefore in no way could account for the sudden
loss. There remained but one more channel of loss to explore, the
expiration of all but the residual air in the lungs. Getting upon
the bed myself, my colleague put the beam at actual balance.
Inspiration and expiration of air as forcibly as possible by me
had no effect upon the beam. My colleague got upon the bed and I
placed the beam at balance. Forcible inspiration and expiration of
air on his part had no effect. In this case we certainly have an
inexplicable loss of weight of three-fourths of an ounce. Is it
the soul substance? How other shall we explain it?


"My second patient was a man moribund from tuberculosis. He was on
the bed about four hours and fifteen minutes under observation
before death. The first four hours he lost weight at the rate of
three-fourths of an ounce per hour. He had much slower respiration
than the first case, which accounted for the difference in loss of
weight from evaporation of perspiration and respiratory moisture.
The last fifteen minutes he had ceased to breathe but his facial
muscles still moved convulsively, and then, coinciding with the
last movement of the facial muscles, the beam dropped. The weight
lost was found to be half an ounce. Then my colleague auscultated
the heart and and found it stopped. I tried again and the loss was
one ounce and a half and fifty grains. In the eighteen minutes
that lapsed between the time he ceased breathing until we were
certain of death, there was a weight loss of one and a half ounces
and fifty grains compared with a loss of three ounces during a
period of four hours, during which time the ordinary channels of
loss were at work. No bowel movement took place. The bladder moved
but the urine remained upon the bed and could not have evaporated
enough through the thick bed clothing to have influenced the
result. The beam at the end of eighteen minutes of doubt was
placed again with the end in slight contact with the upper bar and
watched for forty minutes but no further loss took place. My
scales were sensitive to two-tenths of an ounce. If placed at
balance one-tenth of an ounce would lift the beam up close to the
upper limiting bar, another one-tenth ounce would bring it up and
keep it in direct contact, then if the two-tenths were removed the
beam would drop to the lower bar and then slowly oscillate till
balance was reached again. This patient was of a totally
different temperament from the first, his death was very gradual,
so that we had great doubts from the ordinary evidence to say just
what moment he died. My third case, a man dying of tuberculosis,
showed a weight of half and ounce lost, coincident with death, and
an additional loss of one ounce a few minutes later. In the
fourth case, a woman dying of diabetic coma, unfortunately our
scales were not finely adjusted and there was a good deal of
interference by people opposed to our work, and although at death
the beam sunk so that it required from three-eighths to one-half
ounce to bring it back to the point preceding death, yet I regard
this test as of no value. My fifth case, a man dying of
tuberculosis, showed a distinct drop in the beam requiring about
three-eighths of an ounce which could not be accounted for. This
occurred exactly simultaneously with death but peculiarly on
bringing the beam up again with weights and later removing them,
the beam did not sink back to stay for fully fifteen minutes. It
was impossible to account for the three-eighths of an ounce drop,
it was so sudden and distinct, the beam hitting the lower bar with
as great a noise as in the first case. Our scales in the case were
very sensitively balanced. My sixth and last case was not a fair
test. The patient died almost within five minutes after being
placed upon the bed and died while I was adjusting the beam. In
my communication to Dr. Hodgson I note that I have said there was
no loss of weight. It should have been added that there was no
loss of weight that we were justified in recording. My notes
taken at the time of experiment show a loss of one and one-half
ounces but in addition it should have been said the experiment was
so hurried, jarring of the scales had not wholly ceased and the
apparent weight loss, one and one-half ounces, might have been due
to accidental shifting of the sliding weight on that beam. This
could not have been true of the other tests; no one of them was
done hurriedly. My sixth case I regard as one of no value from
this cause. The same experiments were carried out on fifteen dogs,
surrounded by every precaution to obtain accuracy and the results
were uniformly negative, no loss of weight at death. A loss of
weight takes places about 20 to 30 minutes after death which is
due to the evaporation of the urine normally passed, and which is
duplicated by evaporation of the same amount of water on the
scales, every other condition being the same, e.g., temperature of
the room, except the presence of the dog's body. The dogs
experimented on weighed between 15 and 70 pounds and the scales
with the total weight upon them were sensitive to one-sixteenth of
an ounce. The tests on dogs were vitiated by the use of two drugs
administered to secure the necessary quiet and freedom from
struggle so necessary to keep the beam at balance. The ideal
tests on dogs would be obtained in those dying from some disease
that rendered them much exhausted and incapable of struggle. It
was not my fortune to get dogs dying from such sickness."

Ok, I think we can all agree that it was wrong of MacDougall to
waste 15 healthy dogs in his experiments and I strongly suspect
that it was also a waste from the scientific standpoint as well.
Also, I suspect that any Astral Form associated with the dogs (if
any) may have taken flight at the first sign of MacDougalls
intentions.

MacDougall writes; "The net result of the experiments conducted on
human beings, is that a loss of substance occurs at death not
accounted for by known channels of loss. Is it the soul substance?
It would seem to me to be so. According to our hypothesis such a
substance is necessary to the assumption of continuing or
persisting personality after bodily death, and here we have
experimental demonstration that a substance capable of being
weighed does leave the human body at death. If this substance is
a counterpart to the physical body, has the same bulk, occupies
the same dimensions in space, then it is a very much lighter
substance than the atmosphere surrounding our earth which weighs
about one and one-fourth ounces per cubic foot. This would be a
fact of great significance, as such a body would readily ascend in
our atmosphere. The absence of a weighable mass leaving the body
at death would of course be no argument against continuing
personality, for a space-occupying body or substance might exist
not capable of being weighed, such as the ether."

Ok, MacDougall has hypothesised as far as he reasonably can given
1907 physics. Today similar experiments could nail this thing
right down. Dozens of form-hook parameters may be monitored in
naturally expiring subjects in order to define some if not all of
the specific form attributes that are associated with the Astral
Form. MacDougall demonstrated that the Astral Form may have matter
hooks in its form but it's a given that it will hook up with other
forms and quite possibly directly with the MacDougall Space
hyper-form thus allowing the Astral Form (body) to short circuit
space and time, to seemingly transgress physics. Incidently
MacDougall has attributed one Rudolph Wagner to coining the term
"soul substance".

"In the year 1854 Rudolph Wagner, the physiologist, at the
Gottingen Congress of Physiologists, proposed a discussion of a
"Special Soul Substance." The challenge was accepted, but no
discussion followed and among the 500 voices present not one was
raised in defense of a spiritualistic philosophy. Have we found
Wagner's soul substance?"

Majestik.


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"onegod" wrote in message
...
Well if you want to go theoretic.... Just like gene carry info about body
structure, electron or even photon thoeretically can contain soul.

Please start by learning that a theory is not a vague idea that you like
the sound of.

Then you should remove sci.chem from this list and substitute alt.atheism.

We see much more of this stupidity than (the lucky) sci.chem does.

Thoeretically (sic) you might also want to use a dictionary.