SAA: Observatory Upgrade - What Would You Do?

Friends - we need your advice.

There is an observatory at a small high school, which is near my
parent's home. Whenever I bring the kids up to visit the folks, I
swing by and assist with the twice-weekly star parties this
observatory holds over the summer. The observatory hosts 2-3000 folks
each year. The facility is also used during the school year for an
intro level astronomy class.

The observatory was once a grand place, but over 30+ years of heavy
use, and lacking much in the way of maintenance, it has become a
tired, run-down facility.

BUT, the father of a recent graduate of the school has offered to
donate most of whatever is needed to bring the observatory into the
21st Century.

We are looking for advice on what equipment and software we should
request, and what capabilities we should shoot for.

The only condition stipulated by the donor that I am aware of, is that
the upgrade eventually get the facility to the point that he (the
donor) can log in via the internet and do some remote observing from
time to time.

Currently the observatory has a C-14 orange tube, mounted in a
standard Celestron fork. I think that we can work with the existing
OTA, but the mount HAS to go! [Still, it would sure be nice to bring
everything up to snuff, and get a new scope, too.]

The facility does have an older, but still functional Ash dome - I
think that it is 5 meters in diameter. The dome will probably stay,
but needs to be upgraded in some way so as to be automated, so that it
will sync with the scope for remote viewing.

My question: If you had a lot of money for a school's observatory,
what would you equip it to do, and what hardware/software would you
need to achieve your goals?


Thanks for your help! ~Scott Michaels

On Aug 2, 8:40*pm, wrote:
Friends - we need your advice.

There is an observatory at a small high school, which is near my
parent's home. *Whenever I bring the kids up to visit the folks, I
swing by and assist with the twice-weekly star parties this
observatory holds over the summer. *The observatory hosts 2-3000 folks
each year. *The facility is also used during the school year for an
intro level astronomy class.

The observatory was once a grand place, but over 30+ years of heavy
use, and lacking much in the way of maintenance, it has become a
tired, run-down facility.

BUT, the father of a recent graduate of the school has offered to
donate most of whatever is needed to bring the observatory into the
21st Century.

We are looking for advice on what equipment and software we should
request, and what capabilities we should shoot for.

The only condition stipulated by the donor that I am aware of, is that
the upgrade eventually get the facility to the point that he (the
donor) can log in via the internet and do some remote observing from
time to time.

Currently the observatory has a C-14 orange tube, mounted in a
standard Celestron fork. *I think that we can work with the existing
OTA, but the mount HAS to go! *[Still, it would sure be nice to bring
everything up to snuff, and get a new scope, too.]

The facility does have an older, but still functional Ash dome - I
think that it is 5 meters in diameter. *The dome will probably stay,
but needs to be upgraded in some way so as to be automated, so that it
will sync with the scope for remote viewing.

My question: *If you had a lot of money for a school's observatory,
what would you equip it to do, and what hardware/software would you
need to achieve your goals?

Thanks for your help! * ~Scott Michaels




Contact Dr. Clay Sherrod for suggestions.

http://www.arksky.org/

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:40:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

My question: If you had a lot of money for a school's observatory,
what would you equip it to do, and what hardware/software would you
need to achieve your goals?

I'd most likely put in a Paramount, since it's arguably the best
remotely operable, off-the-shelf mount available. If there was more
money, I'd go with a Mathis mount instead, since you can get a fork that
way. Forks are way friendlier for imaging.

You can keep the OTA, but add a nice computerized focuser. Probably go
with an SBIG camera and filter wheel- wait for the new STX cameras,
though, since you can bypass the whole USB nightmare. Add a remote guide
head and external guidescope. That way, you can guide either externally
or internally, whichever is most convenient. Also, you can use the
guidescope for imaging during public viewing sessions- what they see
through the EP can be augmented by what the guider shows on a screen.

For use at the observatory, any planetarium program should do nicely.
For imaging I'd definitely go with Maxim. For remote operation, ACP is
excellent, but there are several programs that do similar things.

Contact Ash regarding a dome automation upgrade. With luck, that will be
possible.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

wrote:

[snip]



BUT, the father of a recent graduate of the school has offered to
donate most of whatever is needed to bring the observatory into the
21st Century.

OK - Does this benefactor really know what the cost of doing so would
really be ? You, and he might really be surprised at the cost.


We are looking for advice on what equipment and software we should
request, and what capabilities we should shoot for.

The only condition stipulated by the donor that I am aware of, is that
the upgrade eventually get the facility to the point that he (the
donor) can log in via the internet and do some remote observing from
time to time.

This sounds pretty bizarre to me and this "stipulation" is where most of
the cost is going to be. This must not be a public High School because
I'm sure that this stipulation would probably cause a School Board some
heartburn. Not that upgrading the facility is a bad idea. But the
stipulation sounds bad.


Currently the observatory has a C-14 orange tube, mounted in a
standard Celestron fork. I think that we can work with the existing
OTA, but the mount HAS to go! [Still, it would sure be nice to bring
everything up to snuff, and get a new scope, too.]

IMHO - with the stipulation as you presented this OTA would probably not
be a good choice. The mount itself would, as you suggest, have to go.


The facility does have an older, but still functional Ash dome - I
think that it is 5 meters in diameter. The dome will probably stay,
but needs to be upgraded in some way so as to be automated, so that it
will sync with the scope for remote viewing.

After you are revived, along with your "Benefactor", from the sticker
shock of automating an Ash Dome I am certain that this might be
rethought..... But on the off chance he has really deep pockets read on.



My question: If you had a lot of money for a school's observatory,
what would you equip it to do, and what hardware/software would you
need to achieve your goals?

Chris Peterson has some excellent suggestions most of which I will agree
with. A Bisque Mount is the way to go. I'd lose the C-14 though and put
a 12.5 RC on it. A reasonable guidescope and a pair of CCD cameras, or
One good Camera and an external guide head. Software wise as Chris
suggests ACP could very well be used. It functions well and given the
"Stipulation" would allow access should the school actually permit it.
You could also look at the Bisque Software to help the automation
process. But I would use Maxim DL instead of the Bisque Product for
camera control.

The cost for all of this, probably including the Dome Automation would
likely be close to $100K and this is where the problems start. Who is
going to assemble all of these bits and actually make them work together
? Observatory Automation can be challenging and require a lot of
expertise and some deep pockets. Particularly for the remote access piece.

But I seriously doubt that a High School has the talent in house to pull
this off. And if someone is going to be paid to do it then the price
escalates quickly.

Don't get me wrong ..... it's a noble project. But after evaluation of
the location,the skies, and available expertise it might be wise to set
the goals a bit lower.

Regards

Bill

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:40:42 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

We are looking for advice on what equipment and software we should
request, and what capabilities we should shoot for.

Montgomery Bell Academy, Nashville, TN, is building an observatory on
Short Mountain, near McMinnville, TN. Your school could contact that
school.

Bud

On Aug 2, 8:40*pm, wrote:


The only condition stipulated by the donor that I am aware of, is that
the upgrade eventually get the facility to the point that he (the
donor) can log in via the internet and do some remote observing from
time to time.


What happens when he wants to look to the east while students using
the observatory want to look to the west?

On Aug 4, 12:37*pm, "Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names"
wrote:

What happens when he wants to look to the east while students using
the observatory want to look to the west?

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

:
The only condition stipulated by the donor that I am aware of, is that
the upgrade eventually get the facility to the point that he (the
donor) can log in via the internet and do some remote observing from
time to time.


:
What happens when he wants to look to the east while students using
the observatory want to look to the west?

I rather thought that the phrase "from time to time" covered that--not
that I speak for the OP, mind you.

You might do well to dump your self-demeaning handle in favor of
"hitting the books and taking notes!"

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

First, thanks to all for your thoughtful replies.

Again, my connection to this observatory is that I occasionally help
out at star parties and public events, when I'm lucky enough to be
vacationing in the dome's town. I do not have an official position at
the school or at the observatory. I do have a background in science,
and I've had a fair amount of time pushing a scope around, but I have
never before built or upgraded an observatory. (And, more to the
point, neither has the person who is now running the observatory.)
The observatory director is a friend who has asked for my input on the
process.

(I'm sorry that I can't say the name of the school yet; I don't feel
that it is my place to name names without permission - I don't want to
sour the donation!)

Since my initial post, going along with Chris' advice, the school has
ordered a Paramount. It is scheduled to arrive in late August / early
September. I've been asked to help with the installation, which is
the same as the blind leading the blind, but we'll try to get the open
end of the 'scope pointed in the general direction of the stars.

Nothing else has yet been ordered, although there has been some
discussion of "getting something from SBIG". None of us have any
product familiarity with SBIG products, so some research is in order.

Bill posted:
"OK - Does this benefactor really know what the cost of doing so would
really be ? You, and he might really be surprised at the cost. "

The donor is in a position to make a substantial donation. I think
that a budget in excess of a $100,000 is doable; mostly from our
donor, and with additional funds coming from the observatory's
admission fees that we have been saving for several years (the dome
charges $2-3 per person for viewing, so there is a tidy sum
available.) The donor is in a position that if we need more help,
there will likely be several tens of thousands of dollars MORE
available if required.

The one thing that the school and the donor have a pretty good handle
on is the budget. The funds for a really cool project are there.
What is lacking is a plan. For the amount we are about to spend I
REALLY want to help the school to avoid screwing up, making poor
choices on the details of the upgrade.

So - I've been asked to help spend lots and lots of someone else's
cash to build a modern, modest but complete, observatory. Very cool,
but also a challenge to do well.

Bill posted:
"This sounds pretty bizarre to me and this "stipulation" is where most
of
the cost is going to be. This must not be a public High School because
I'm sure that this stipulation would probably cause a School Board
some
heartburn. Not that upgrading the facility is a bad idea. But the
stipulation sounds bad. "

You are perceptive - this is a private school. The school's
leadership is excited about the ability to expand the observatory's
outreach beyond the dome.

The school and the observatory are way in the countryside, far from
the nearest small town (dark skies, but not many folks around who are
into astronomy). It is open ~20 nights a year for public viewing,
with about 1500 people a year (mostly tourists) visiting; students use
it ~10 nights a year for classwork; and I use the facility ~7 nights a
year for my own interests (I've been given a key, and I'm welcome to
use the observatory as often as I like, but as I live far from the
dome I do not get there as often as I would like).

Given the weather in our area, I'd guess that there are ~200 viewing
nights a year. On perhaps 80% of possible viewing nights the dome is
not currently used.

If a major donor wants to use remote viewing on several of the 100's
of nights each year when the dome is currently empty, and is willing
to donate lots of money to make that happen, then I think that is a
reasonable accommodation to a person nice enough to help big time. Is
that a bad stipulation, or a small thank you for a big donation?

BTW - to my knowledge I'm the only person who actually does any
astronomy at the facility. Currently we have perhaps the worst
observatory in the state; run-down and very tired, which is perhaps
why I have no competition for viewing time. When we are done with the
upgrade I hope we will have something far closer to the best
observatory around. I imagine that with the better facility will also
come more demands on available viewing time.

Now - I do have a personal concern about how well I can be a good
advisor to the upgrade project. I live hundreds of miles away from
the observatory. Due to the time I have dedicated to the observatory
in the past, and in recognition of my own (now looking very modest)
donations, I will also be allowed to use the scope remotely. I would
like to use the viewing time for my own astro interests, as well as in
the classroom (I do a whole lot of public outreach for schools and
community groups). I'd like to think that I can be an honest advisor
to the school; but I'm worried that my own interests may cloud my
judgment. I'm keeping an eye on myself as I help with this, and
reminding the folks at the school from time to time of my personal
bias.

Bill posted:
"The cost for all of this, probably including the Dome Automation
would
likely be close to $100K...."

And that is the first rough number we came up with. We can do $100K.
We MAY be able to do more, if $100K won't do the job. (I'm frankly
kinda shocked how much money this guy is willing to put into the
project. I want to start spending it before he changes his mind!)

Bill posted:
".... and this is where the problems start. Who is
going to assemble all of these bits and actually make them work
together?
Observatory Automation can be challenging and require a lot of
expertise and some deep pockets. Particularly for the remote access
piece."

But I seriously doubt that a High School has the talent in house to
pull
this off. And if someone is going to be paid to do it then the price
escalates quickly."

Yes and yes - you are right. The school does not have the talent in-
house. With my help, we don't even have the talent out-house (so to
speak). I'm getting release time off from work to help with the
project, BUT, how much of this can a couple of ignorant but teachable
techno-savvy guys do on their own? If we need to hire talent, then
it's very likely that the school will do so. First, tho, we're going
to see what we can do on our own.

Kickin' Tushie posted:
"What happens when he wants to look to the east while students using
the observatory want to look to the west? "

A very good question. As Davoud grokked in his post, the school needs
to get a policy in writing, of course, but the understanding is that
this observatory belongs to a SCHOOL, and that education comes first.
The donor will have access when the facility would otherwise be not in
use.

[Besides, the donor is doing all this to support the school; if he
wanted his own scope in his own backyard, or anywhere in the world
given his finances, it would be far easier for him to just buy
something for himself and not bother with l'il 'ol us. He has a long
track record of supporting the school - I understand that he's good
people, except that he has more money than any 10 people that I know.]

The plan is to do this piece by piece, with the goal to have all in
place by next summer. The mount, which is the observatory's biggest
failing, is ordered and on its way. We are looking at the optics for
the next piece of the puzzle. And my homework is to follow up on
Chris' suggestions.

OK - a long rambling post. Here is the short version: Lots of money,
and no good idea of how to spend it.

As long as we don't screw this up, this is going to be an amazing
project!


Thanks! ~Scott Michaels

On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 20:42:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

First, thanks to all for your thoughtful replies...

One more bit of critical advice: nobody has really developed a foolproof
robotic observatory system. Even the best run into occasional problems:
crashed computers, stuck dome shutters, scopes against hard limits, etc.
These aren't problems that can be ignored. Somebody needs to be
available whenever the telescope is being used remotely. They need to be
competent enough to deal with problems (at the least, to shut things
down gracefully and make sure the equipment is protected), and they need
to be nearby- even an hour is really too far. If your benefactor meets
those requirements, that's great. But if not, you need to train one or
more emergency handlers near the school.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com