Help with a citation!

I need help to find a citation! Since I am not experienced in the
usenet culture I tried to get some help in soc.ancient.history.
Signature Melly Clismus Dochos sent me to your group, mentioning that
there are several members knowledgable in the subject. He mentioned in
particular a member of your group called Brian Tung, an expert in
history of Astronomy. I hope that he (or any other expert in your
group) can take the time to help me with the following problem.

It is claimed that Aristarchos of Samos, after having "published" his
"On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon" where he proved that
the Sun was far larger than the Earth, made the following remark in
defence of his Heliocentric system:

"It is ridiculous to believe that the Bous (=ox) revolves around the
tail, instead of the other way round." or something like that!

Where can I find the primary source of this claim? Plutarch? If
Plutarch where? De facie? Somewhere else?

Please can you help me? If not to the source to a pointer to the
source. I do not have a nearest expert.

Thank you and apologies for the triviality of the subject.

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:53:03 -0800 (PST), Sigge
wrote:

Where can I find the primary source of this claim? Plutarch? If
Plutarch where? De facie? Somewhere else?

This is not what you wanted from Plutarch's essay SENTIMENTS
CONCERNING NATURE, WITH WHICH PHILOSOPHERS WERE DELIGHTED (Project
Gutenberg):

Aristarchus placeth the sun amongst the fixed
stars, and believeth that the earth [the moon?] is moved about the
sun, and that by its inclination and vergency it intercepts its
light and shadows its orb.

Dreyer in his book on the history of planetary systems from Thales to
Kepler said that it wasn't clear that Aristarchus had worked out a
complete heliocentric system. I can't lay hands on my copy of his
book at the moment to look up which Greek authors Dreyer cites.

Bud

On Dec 23, 3:18 pm, William Hamblen wrote:
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:53:03 -0800 (PST), Sigge

Thank you, mr William Hamblen.

This is not what you wanted from Plutarch's essay SENTIMENTS
CONCERNING NATURE, WITH WHICH PHILOSOPHERS WERE DELIGHTED (Project
Gutenberg):

Aristarchus placeth the sun amongst the fixed
stars, and believeth that the earth [the moon?] is moved about the
sun, and that by its inclination and vergency it intercepts its
light and shadows its orb.

I found through Google an electronic copy of the Book you suggested. I
couldn't find there what I wanted.

I will check the book of Dreyer, although the introduction of
Psammites(=Sand Reckoner aka Arenarius) by Archimedes is perfectly
clear.

Thank you, Bud!

Sigge

"Sigge" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 3:18 pm, William Hamblen wrote:
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:53:03 -0800 (PST), Sigge

Thank you, mr William Hamblen.

This is not what you wanted from Plutarch's essay SENTIMENTS
CONCERNING NATURE, WITH WHICH PHILOSOPHERS WERE DELIGHTED (Project
Gutenberg):

Aristarchus placeth the sun amongst the fixed
stars, and believeth that the earth [the moon?] is moved about the
sun, and that by its inclination and vergency it intercepts its
light and shadows its orb.

I found through Google an electronic copy of the Book you suggested. I
couldn't find there what I wanted.

I will check the book of Dreyer, although the introduction of
Psammites(=Sand Reckoner aka Arenarius) by Archimedes is perfectly
clear.

Thank you, Bud!

Sigge

Sounds like you've gotten some useful help from Bud...

Don't give up on Brian yet...

He's quite capable of answering this sort of question or pointing you in the
right direction...

Sadly, this is a bit beyond my range, without actually sitting down and
researching the question further, as much as it hurts to admit it...

C'mon Brian!!!

--
Jan Owen

To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
Latitude: 33.6
Longitude: -112.3
http://community.webshots.com/user/janowen21

Just to make sure Brian SEES this!!!

--
Jan Owen

To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
Latitude: 33.6
Longitude: -112.3
http://community.webshots.com/user/janowen21
"Jan Owen" wrote in message
...
"Sigge" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 3:18 pm, William Hamblen wrote:
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:53:03 -0800 (PST), Sigge

Thank you, mr William Hamblen.

This is not what you wanted from Plutarch's essay SENTIMENTS
CONCERNING NATURE, WITH WHICH PHILOSOPHERS WERE DELIGHTED (Project
Gutenberg):

Aristarchus placeth the sun amongst the fixed
stars, and believeth that the earth [the moon?] is moved about the
sun, and that by its inclination and vergency it intercepts its
light and shadows its orb.

I found through Google an electronic copy of the Book you suggested. I
couldn't find there what I wanted.

I will check the book of Dreyer, although the introduction of
Psammites(=Sand Reckoner aka Arenarius) by Archimedes is perfectly
clear.

Thank you, Bud!

Sigge

Sounds like you've gotten some useful help from Bud...

Don't give up on Brian yet...

He's quite capable of answering this sort of question or pointing you in
the right direction...

Sadly, this is a bit beyond my range, without actually sitting down and
researching the question further, as much as it hurts to admit it...

C'mon Brian!!!

--
Jan Owen

To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
Latitude: 33.6
Longitude: -112.3
http://community.webshots.com/user/janowen21

Sigge wrote:

It is claimed that Aristarchos of Samos, after having "published" his
"On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon" where he proved that
the Sun was far larger than the Earth, made the following remark in
defence of his Heliocentric system:

"It is ridiculous to believe that the Bous (=ox) revolves around the
tail, instead of the other way round." or something like that!

Where can I find the primary source of this claim? Plutarch? If
Plutarch where? De facie? Somewhere else?

"It is claimed" ...by whom? That seems like the most sensible place to
start a search for the primary source.

I'm skeptical that you'll find a satisfactory source for this anecdote,
though. It's a little too good to be true. It's common to speculate
that Aristarchus was led to heliocentrism by the work he did on the
relative sizes of the Earth and Sun, but as far as I know it is *only*
speculation, because there's no real evidence for it. If some form of
your anecdote appeared in Archimedes, Aristotle, or Plutarch, I'd expect
that to be widely known.

- Ernie http://home.comcast.net/~erniew

Ernie Wright wrote:
[snip]

It's common to
speculate that Aristarchus was led to heliocentrism by the work he
did on the relative sizes of the Earth and Sun, but as far as I know
it is *only* speculation, because there's no real evidence for it.
If some form of your anecdote appeared in Archimedes, Aristotle, or
Plutarch, I'd expect that to be widely known.

Aristarchus' helicentricism is documented by Archimedes in Psammites (The Sand
Reconner).

In it, Archimedes writes (set your newsreader's post encoding to Greek to see
the following)

"Áñßóôáñ÷ïò ï ÓÜìéïò õðïôßèåôáé ãáñ ôá ìåí áðëáíÝá ôùí Üóôñùí êáé ôïí Áëéïí
ìÝíåéí áêßíçôïí, ôáí äå Ãáí ðåñéöÝñåóèáé ðåñß ôïí Áëéïí êáôÜ êýêëïõ ðåñéöÝñåéáí,
üò åóôéí åí ìÝóù ôù äñüìù êåßìåíïò".

Translation:

"Aristarchos of Samos states that the stars and Sun are stationary, and the
Earth is going around the Sun according to a circle's perimeter, with the Sun
lying on the center (of that circle/path)".

I have never heard of the quote the OP writes about. It is likely anecdotal.

- Ernie
--
I.N. Galidakis

On Dec 23, 10:00 pm, "Jan Owen" wrote:
....

Don't give up on Brian yet...

He's quite capable of answering this sort of question or pointing you in the
right direction...

Sadly, this is a bit beyond my range, without actually sitting down and
researching the question further, as much as it hurts to admit it...

C'mon Brian!!!

--
Jan Owen



Thank you, mr Jan OWEN!
I gathered all my courage and audacity and found Brian Tung and posted
him the question at his work!
I hope I did not break any rules!

Sigge

On Dec 24, 12:13 am, Ernie Wright wrote:

"It is claimed" ...by whom? That seems like the most sensible place to
start a search for the primary source.
Absolutely correct! But I have had many discussions and I have
forgotten to ask the sources!

I'm skeptical that you'll find a satisfactory source for this anecdote,
though. It's a little too good to be true.

Yes indeed! Isn't it? Aristotle accepted that the phenomena could be
explained by an Earth rotating around its axis. But his arguments
against a rotating Erth were far too strong and of the nature that
Aristarchos could not answer. But Aristarchos was most likely too
smart and too audacious to accept Aristotle as an authority on
Astronomy. So he decided to eliminate Aristotles arguments by turning
the tables. He first proved that the Sun was definitely much larger
than the Earth and then ask the Geocentrists to prove that the Ox is
revolving around the tail.

Of cource this is speculation until we find this remark in a primary
source.

I am sure I heard it from somewhere (It is impossible for me to make
up this kind of things).
But where?

Thank you for the answer mr Ernie Wright

[Oops--sent this to the wrong newsgroup. --brian]

I haven't responded to this because I've had to switch to an alternate
newsserver and it is incomplete. I'm hoping to rectify that in the near
future, but in the meantime, this is the first I've seen of this. I had
to find it on Google and copy the Message-ID over to my usual reader.

Sigge wrote:
I need help to find a citation! Since I am not experienced in the
usenet culture I tried to get some help in soc.ancient.history.
Signature Melly Clismus Dochos sent me to your group, mentioning that
there are several members knowledgable in the subject. He mentioned in
particular a member of your group called Brian Tung, an expert in
history of Astronomy. I hope that he (or any other expert in your
group) can take the time to help me with the following problem.

It is claimed that Aristarchos of Samos, after having "published" his
"On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon" where he proved that
the Sun was far larger than the Earth, made the following remark in
defence of his Heliocentric system:

"It is ridiculous to believe that the Bous (=ox) revolves around the
tail, instead of the other way round." or something like that!

Where can I find the primary source of this claim? Plutarch? If
Plutarch where? De facie? Somewhere else?

Please can you help me? If not to the source to a pointer to the
source. I do not have a nearest expert.

Thank you and apologies for the triviality of the subject.

Well! I must say, this is the first time (to my knowledge) I've been
called an expert in the history of astronomy. As much as I'm flattered,
it is not accurate; I'm merely very interested, and I do have a broad
knowledge of astronomical history, but I'm by no means an expert.

As though to illustrate that, I have nothing in particular to add to
Ernie Wright's reply at the moment. I do have a few sources I can check
that might shed some light on matters, but I'm not very optimistic. I
share Ernie's suspicion that there is no such primary source.

There's a fellow named Chris (I *think*) who has posted here under the
handle of "starburst"; he also has some interest in historical matters,
and he might have some thoughts to share.

By the way, Sigge, I've not seen your e-mail to me at my work. It's
possible it's gotten caught in a spam filter. Please try mailing me
at in the future. (I'll probably be changing my .sig
soon to reflect this.)

--
Brian Tung
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html