Hondurans Get Their Moonrock Back

see
http://www.msnbc.com/news/970313.asp?0dm=C26AT

From James Oberg:
see
http://www.msnbc.com/news/970313.asp?0dm=C26AT

Quotes from article:

"He was given the plaque...at a Denny's restaurant..."

(Alan's order: I'll have the Grand Slam with a side of Selene
Breccia.)


"U.S. regulations prohibit private ownership of Apollo lunar samples"

I know of at least one ex-NASA person with a privately owned moonrock.
It was a small sample encased in the "standard" lucite ball mounted
on an unassuming dark wood trophy-type base.

In a recent conversation I had with Jack Schmitt, I asked him whether
he has any lunar samples. His face took on a perturbed expression and
he denied having anything. The point I was getting at was that it
would be neat for those who had been there to get at least a little
pebble, especially the geologist!


It would have been nice if Alan Rosen got his moonrock back. When a
private citizen takes something that doesn't belong to them, it's
called "stealing". When a government takes something, it's called
"confiscation".

Sad to see one more effort toward "privatization of space" getting
thwarted by the government.


~ CT

(Stuf4) wrote in message . com...
From James Oberg:
see
http://www.msnbc.com/news/970313.asp?0dm=C26AT

Quotes from article:

"He was given the plaque...at a Denny's restaurant..."

(Alan's order: I'll have the Grand Slam with a side of Selene
Breccia.)


"U.S. regulations prohibit private ownership of Apollo lunar samples"

I know of at least one ex-NASA person with a privately owned moonrock.
It was a small sample encased in the "standard" lucite ball mounted
on an unassuming dark wood trophy-type base.

Maybe a replica.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/space/2106880
"A Santa Fe-area woman who thought she had moon rocks from the Apollo
11 mission discovered after they were stolen that they most likely
were replicas."

In a recent conversation I had with Jack Schmitt, I asked him whether
he has any lunar samples. His face took on a perturbed expression and
he denied having anything. The point I was getting at was that it
would be neat for those who had been there to get at least a little
pebble, especially the geologist!

There was some legislation a few years ago for such a thing, but
it seems, it led to nuthin'.

It would have been nice if Alan Rosen got his moonrock back. When a
private citizen takes something that doesn't belong to them, it's
called "stealing". When a government takes something, it's called
"confiscation".

Sad to see one more effort toward "privatization of space" getting
thwarted by the government.

Why? It was stolen property. If I buy a stolen shuttle from someone,
would you call it "privatization of space thwarted by the government"
when the police comes and confiscates it?

From Harald Kucharek:
snip
It would have been nice if Alan Rosen got his moonrock back. When a
private citizen takes something that doesn't belong to them, it's
called "stealing". When a government takes something, it's called
"confiscation".

Sad to see one more effort toward "privatization of space" getting
thwarted by the government.

Why? It was stolen property. If I buy a stolen shuttle from someone,
would you call it "privatization of space thwarted by the government"
when the police comes and confiscates it?

The alledged theft occurred in a different country. I'd say that
international legalities get very sticky here.

....and this shows a further violation of a US citizen by the US
government. It is the US government's job to ensure protection to
Alan Rosen of US law. As far as I'm aware, he was never accused of
violating any Constitutionally sound US law.

As a twist on your hypothetical:

If a Buran is stolen by a Russian citizen and then a US citizen buys
that shuttle with no violation of US law, then the buyer becomes the
rightful owner (strictly according to US law) of that Buran.

Continuing on with the position of the US government maintaining a
desire to hold a monopoly of space shuttle-type vehicles.
Confiscation of that private property by some unsound
(Constitutionally unsound) justification turns the US government into
the entity that has committed a violation.


That's how I see it. I am certain that there are plenty of contrary
opinions on this complex issue.

I don't have much desire to get into a legal debate, so I don't expect
that I will add much more here.

(But if anyone can provide a solid Constitutional basis to support
what the US govt did to Alan Rosen, I would be very interested to read
that.)


~ CT

From Harald Kucharek:
I know of at least one ex-NASA person with a privately owned moonrock.
It was a small sample encased in the "standard" lucite ball mounted
on an unassuming dark wood trophy-type base.

Maybe a replica.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/space/2106880
"A Santa Fe-area woman who thought she had moon rocks from the Apollo
11 mission discovered after they were stolen that they most likely
were replicas."

Interesting article, by the way. Thanks.

This person I know of was thoroughly convinced in his rock's
authenticity. I did not question him at the time, but I do agree that
there is a chance that his is only a replica.


~ CT

"Stuf4" wrote in message
om...
From Harald Kucharek:
snip
It would have been nice if Alan Rosen got his moonrock back. When a
private citizen takes something that doesn't belong to them, it's
called "stealing". When a government takes something, it's called
"confiscation".

Sad to see one more effort toward "privatization of space" getting
thwarted by the government.

Why? It was stolen property. If I buy a stolen shuttle from someone,
would you call it "privatization of space thwarted by the government"
when the police comes and confiscates it?

The alledged theft occurred in a different country. I'd say that
international legalities get very sticky here.

...and this shows a further violation of a US citizen by the US
government. It is the US government's job to ensure protection to
Alan Rosen of US law. As far as I'm aware, he was never accused of
violating any Constitutionally sound US law.

As a twist on your hypothetical:

If a Buran is stolen by a Russian citizen and then a US citizen buys
that shuttle with no violation of US law, then the buyer becomes the
rightful owner (strictly according to US law) of that Buran.


Excepting buying stolen goods is illegal under US law. I don't believe US
law makes a distinction as to regards what jurisdiction the stealing takes
place uder. Therefore, your entire argument is flawed.

Continuing on with the position of the US government maintaining a
desire to hold a monopoly of space shuttle-type vehicles.
Confiscation of that private property by some unsound
(Constitutionally unsound) justification turns the US government into
the entity that has committed a violation.


That's how I see it. I am certain that there are plenty of contrary
opinions on this complex issue.

I don't have much desire to get into a legal debate, so I don't expect
that I will add much more here.

(But if anyone can provide a solid Constitutional basis to support
what the US govt did to Alan Rosen, I would be very interested to read
that.)


~ CT

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
...
Excepting buying stolen goods is illegal under US law. I don't believe US
law makes a distinction as to regards what jurisdiction the stealing takes
place uder. Therefore, your entire argument is flawed.

Like *that* is a first when it comes to Stuffie.
--
If you have had problems with Illinois Student Assistance Commission (ISAC),
please contact shredder at bellsouth dot net. There may be a class-action
lawsuit
in the works.

..
The alledged theft occurred in a different country. I'd say that
international legalities get very sticky here.

Excepting buying stolen goods is illegal under US law. I don't believe US
law makes a distinction as to regards what jurisdiction the stealing takes
place uder. Therefore, your entire argument is flawed.

That's how I see it. I am certain that there are plenty of contrary
opinions on this complex issue.

I don't have much desire to get into a legal debate, so I don't expect
that I will add much more here.

~ CT

(Stuf4) wrote in message om...

This person I know of was thoroughly convinced in his rock's
authenticity. I did not question him at the time, but I do agree that
there is a chance that his is only a replica.

If it is claimed to come from Apollo, it isn't a replica and it wasn't
purchased from a foreign country in a legal sale, then it was stolen
-- without question. The U.S. never awarded a moon rock to an
individual and no one working for the program was ever authorized to
give one away. There were 135 pieces of the Goodwill Rock, sample
70017, that were presented to the peoples of foreign countries and
there were 51 pieces of the same rock presented to the 50 states plus
Puerto Rico. The state samples cannot be transferred to an individual
under U.S. law.

Most of the 135 countries have a law that prevents the transfer of
public goods to private ownership. Honduras had such a law, and that
is why any such sale of their rock was and is illegal. Rosen's
problem, other than purchasing stolen merchandise, was that the rock
was smuggled into the U.S. -- it was never declared at customs.

(There was also a similar presentation of moon rock using a sample
returned by Apollo 11 but the record of such gifts are not yet
online.)

Related information:

http://www.collectspace.com/resource..._goodwill.html
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-062902a.html

--
Robert Pearlman
editor, collectSPACE
http://www.collectspace.com/

In article ,
Robert Pearlman wrote:
(There was also a similar presentation of moon rock using a sample
returned by Apollo 11...

Dust, not rock. At the time there was strong feeling that the rocks --
much more scientifically valuable -- should not be used as gifts, not
to anyone.
--
MOST launched 1015 EDT 30 June, separated 1046, | Henry Spencer
first ground-station pass 1651, all nominal! |