LOR question

At http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Rendezvous.html it says "If
rendezvous had to be part of Project Apollo, critics of LOR felt that
it should be done only in Earth orbit. if that rendezvous failed, the
threatened astronauts could be brought back home simply by allowing
the orbit of their spacecraft to deteriorate. "

If the LM was allowed to reenter, the astronauts are dead anyway. Is
the point really that there is a chance of a rescue mission if the
rendezvous fails in Earth orbit?
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:32:26 -0400, Jud McCranie
wrote:

At http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Rendezvous.html it says "If
rendezvous had to be part of Project Apollo, critics of LOR felt that
it should be done only in Earth orbit. if that rendezvous failed, the
threatened astronauts could be brought back home simply by allowing
the orbit of their spacecraft to deteriorate. "

If the LM was allowed to reenter, the astronauts are dead anyway. Is
the point really that there is a chance of a rescue mission if the
rendezvous fails in Earth orbit?

I realized that they are talking about no orbit around the moon, and
really talking about a failure of the SM engine - not a failure of the
rendezvous.
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In article ,
Jud McCranie wrote:
"...it should be done only in Earth orbit. if that rendezvous failed, the
threatened astronauts could be brought back home simply by allowing
the orbit of their spacecraft to deteriorate. "

If the LM was allowed to reenter, the astronauts are dead anyway.

With rendezvous only in Earth orbit, there is no LM. The only spacecraft
the astronauts ever occupy is the CM.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:52:13 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

With rendezvous only in Earth orbit, there is no LM. The only spacecraft
the astronauts ever occupy is the CM.

You're right, I wasn't thinking correctly at the time. But the
website is still confusing on that issue.
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:41:58 -0400, Jud McCranie
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:32:26 -0400, Jud McCranie
wrote:

At http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Rendezvous.html it says "If
rendezvous had to be part of Project Apollo, critics of LOR felt that
it should be done only in Earth orbit. if that rendezvous failed, the
threatened astronauts could be brought back home simply by allowing
the orbit of their spacecraft to deteriorate. "

If the LM was allowed to reenter, the astronauts are dead anyway. Is
the point really that there is a chance of a rescue mission if the
rendezvous fails in Earth orbit?

I realized that they are talking about no orbit around the moon, and
really talking about a failure of the SM engine - not a failure of the
rendezvous.

....Ah, but the real "What The ****??" scenario is how the crew
would/could survive any combination of two failures following an SM
main engine *and* RCS failu

1) What if the SM could not be detached?

....And/Or:

2) What if the LM could not be detached?

....Somehow I doubt the Glenn option would be applicable, much less
desireable.

OM
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:52:13 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

With rendezvous only in Earth orbit, there is no LM.

....Wait, this doesn't exactly make sense, Henry. If there's no LM, why
would there be any sort of OR at all?

[Possible T-Shirt Alert; Weasle-Word Deflectors ON!]

OM
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
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OM wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:52:13 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

With rendezvous only in Earth orbit, there is no LM.

...Wait, this doesn't exactly make sense, Henry. If there's no LM,
why would there be any sort of OR at all?

To save weight, the CSM would be launched without its earth departure
stage or with the stage empty.

Once in orbit, the crew would have to offload the earth deprture
propellants from an unmanned tanker or, alternatively, rendezvous with
the earth departure stage.

--
Dave Michelson

On Jun 18, 2:43 pm, OM wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:52:13 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

With rendezvous only in Earth orbit, there is no LM.

...Wait, this doesn't exactly make sense, Henry. If there's no LM, why
would there be any sort of OR at all?

[Possible T-Shirt Alert; Weasle-Word Deflectors ON!]

The crew module would have to be transferred from the launch vehicle
to the lunar transfer stage.

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 03:24:33 -0700, Neil Gerace
wrote:

On Jun 18, 2:43 pm, OM wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:52:13 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

With rendezvous only in Earth orbit, there is no LM.

...Wait, this doesn't exactly make sense, Henry. If there's no LM, why
would there be any sort of OR at all?

[Possible T-Shirt Alert; Weasle-Word Deflectors ON!]

The crew module would have to be transferred from the launch vehicle
to the lunar transfer stage.

....But is Henry referring to an EOR version of the DA mode? It's his
wording here that confused me significantly.

OM
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

On Jun 18, 9:13 am, OM wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 03:24:33 -0700, Neil Gerace

wrote:
On Jun 18, 2:43 pm, OM wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:52:13 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

With rendezvous only in Earth orbit, there is no LM.

...Wait, this doesn't exactly make sense, Henry. If there's no LM, why
would there be any sort of OR at all?

[Possible T-Shirt Alert; Weasle-Word Deflectors ON!]

The crew module would have to be transferred from the launch vehicle
to the lunar transfer stage.

...But is Henry referring to an EOR version of the DA mode? It's his
wording here that confused me significantly.

I know Henry will answer, but I'll just kick in my 2 cents anyway
because I have the time.

Originally, when we had no rendezvous experience, there was no
consideration that two spacecraft would be able to dock in lunar
orbit. Therefore, the plan was to design a CM / SM combination that
would leave the earth, land, take off, and come directly back. This
is why the SM was oversized compared to the actual need.

This left the question of how to get the CSM out of earth orbit. You
had two choices. First, build one honking big launcher and send the
whole thing directly to the moon (direct ascent). The other was to
use two smaller launchers, one to lift the CSM into orbit and the
other to lift the lunar injection stage. The CSM would use the lunar
injection stage to get out of earth orbit (the earth orbit rendezvous
option). Neither considered an LM, based on the original assumption
that LOR was not feasible.