M1

Is M1 a difficult object from light polluted skies?

I live in a city, in an apartment complex with the usual "security"
lighting. I see only the brightest stars with my naked eye. For example,
in Orion, I see only Betelgeuse, Rigel, Bellatrix, Saiph, three stars in the
belt, and 2-3 stars in the sword.

I have tried for the last three nights to find M1 with no luck -- not even
the faintest fuzzy appears. I'm using an XT-12, 12-inch dob; collimation is
dead on. I've tried different eyepieces -- 35mm PanOptic (43X), 18mm Radian
(83X), 10mm Radian (150X) -- no luck.

I am starhopping using a Telrad and the instructions in "Turn Left at
Orion" -- find Zeta Tauri -- very faint naked eye from my location -- then
slightly NW of Zeta Tauri, toward El Nath.

Have tried with OII and Orion UltraBlock filters -- not a wisp.

For comparison
-- M31 is not naked eye but is readily visible with 8X42 and 10X50 binos.
With my scope, I see the glowing center surrounded by a fuzzy cloud but I
can't see the long, elliptical extensions of M31 -- too much light pollution
I assume.
-- I can find M57, Ring Nebula, with no problem (takes a little searching).
At 83X and 150X the ring structure is clear though I cannot see the star in
the center.

My scope has the Orion Intelliscope feature but I'm trying to find objects
by starhopping. I guess my next step is to use the Intelliscope to find
M1 -- if it's visible at all.

Thanks.

Joe S. wrote:
Is M1 a difficult object from light polluted skies?

I live in a city, in an apartment complex with the usual "security"
lighting. I see only the brightest stars with my naked eye. For example,
in Orion, I see only Betelgeuse, Rigel, Bellatrix, Saiph, three stars in the
belt, and 2-3 stars in the sword.

I have tried for the last three nights to find M1 with no luck -- not even
the faintest fuzzy appears. I'm using an XT-12, 12-inch dob; collimation is
dead on. I've tried different eyepieces -- 35mm PanOptic (43X), 18mm Radian
(83X), 10mm Radian (150X) -- no luck.

I am starhopping using a Telrad and the instructions in "Turn Left at
Orion" -- find Zeta Tauri -- very faint naked eye from my location -- then
slightly NW of Zeta Tauri, toward El Nath.

Have tried with OII and Orion UltraBlock filters -- not a wisp.

For comparison
-- M31 is not naked eye but is readily visible with 8X42 and 10X50 binos.
With my scope, I see the glowing center surrounded by a fuzzy cloud but I
can't see the long, elliptical extensions of M31 -- too much light pollution
I assume.
-- I can find M57, Ring Nebula, with no problem (takes a little searching).
At 83X and 150X the ring structure is clear though I cannot see the star in
the center.

My scope has the Orion Intelliscope feature but I'm trying to find objects
by starhopping. I guess my next step is to use the Intelliscope to find
M1 -- if it's visible at all.

Thanks.

It's listed in my star chart as 1 degree 7 minutes 56 seconds away from
zeta Tauri. Zeta Tauri is a mag 3, and the crab nebula is an 8.3, so
it's going to be much much fainter. There's a 4.9 mag star listed as
114 Taurii which is 1 degree 36 minutes away from M1, and 2 degrees 27
minutes away from zeta Taurii in the direction of tau Taurii. If you
imagine a line between zeta Taurii and 114 Taurii, M1 will be just
North of that line in the early evening.

In comparison, M57 is a mag 9.6, and M31 is listed as 4.3

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:25:24 -0500, "Joe S." wrote:

Is M1 a difficult object from light polluted skies?

I live in a city, in an apartment complex with the usual "security"
lighting. I see only the brightest stars with my naked eye. For example,
in Orion, I see only Betelgeuse, Rigel, Bellatrix, Saiph, three stars in the
belt, and 2-3 stars in the sword.

I have tried for the last three nights to find M1 with no luck -- not even
the faintest fuzzy appears. I'm using an XT-12, 12-inch dob; collimation is
dead on. I've tried different eyepieces -- 35mm PanOptic (43X), 18mm Radian
(83X), 10mm Radian (150X) -- no luck.

I am starhopping using a Telrad and the instructions in "Turn Left at
Orion" -- find Zeta Tauri -- very faint naked eye from my location -- then
slightly NW of Zeta Tauri, toward El Nath.

Have tried with OII and Orion UltraBlock filters -- not a wisp.

I suspect you meant "OIII". I have both filters, but haven't tried
either on M1 -- not yet anyway. I tend to prefer observing and
depicting objects as they appear in a reasonably dark sky without the
use of filters. I 'suspect' (but don't know for certain) that M1
might be one of those objects that's more readily visible without
either filter.

IIRC, the XT-12 comes with a 9x50 finder. One of the first things I
do with any finder is to measure its true field of view (My homemade
9x50 has a FOV of 5.75 degrees). Using the finder, with its known
true FOV, along with a reasonable star chart and your Telrad ought to
allow you to point the scope "exactly" at M1's location. M1 should
then be visible in your 35mm Panoptic. You will probably need to use
averted vision to see it. Once you've found the Crab, you could
increase magnification as desired.

If you don't already do this, here's a suggestion: Considering your
light pollution and/or light trespass situation, try keeping your
eyepiece eye covered (to maximize dark adaptation in that eye) except
when actually looking through the eyepiece. Do all you can to
maximize that eye's light sensitivity! (I wore red goggles inside
prior to last night's observations;-)

For comparison
-- M31 is not naked eye but is readily visible with 8X42 and 10X50 binos.
With my scope, I see the glowing center surrounded by a fuzzy cloud but I
can't see the long, elliptical extensions of M31 -- too much light pollution
I assume.
-- I can find M57, Ring Nebula, with no problem (takes a little searching).
At 83X and 150X the ring structure is clear though I cannot see the star in
the center.

My scope has the Orion Intelliscope feature but I'm trying to find objects
by starhopping. I guess my next step is to use the Intelliscope to find
M1 -- if it's visible at all.

M1 should be visible! I've seen M1 (from a dark sky) with 8x42
binoculars. Even when within one degree (IIRC) of a bright, gibbous
moon I've been able to see M1 with 20x80 binoculars. Light pollution
will definitely have an impact, but M1 should certainly be visible
with a 12 inch scope, at low power, under your sky conditions.

You've tried for three nights on your own. It sounds like a good time
to set the scope up with the Intelliscope. You could try once more
without using it; but this time, if you don't succeed, you can flip
the switch and use it! Good Luck! M1 is still out there. I saw it
just a couple of nights ago. A sketch appears in my blog.
--
Bill
Celestial Journeys
http://cejour.blogspot.com

"Joe S." wrote in message ...

Is M1 a difficult object from light polluted skies?

[snip for brevity]

It's a difficult object under light polluted skies. I've had a chance to
examine it carefully two years ago using 11x80, 20x100 and a Tasco 60mm, under
6.4+ skies.

On moonless nights it was definitely visible with the 11x80 pair and very
obvious using the 20x100 pair using a stable tripod.

I used the 20x100 pair as a finder on my Tasco and yes, it was marginally
visible with the Tasco at 35x. But it was almost impossible to locate without
using the 20x100 pair as a finder.

At 35x with the Tasco, it was barely standing out against the background. If
the Tasco's 60mm lens was unaided by the huge finder, it would be a heck of a
challenge for this lens.

I suspect that Turn Left at Orion slightly exaggerates on this object, or if
not, the author used a slightly larger aperture for his descriptions, maybe a
3" or something. It definitely won't be visible in any cheap finder and if
there is a hint of light pollution, a 60mm lens will be pushed to its limits.

-- I can find M57, Ring Nebula, with no problem (takes a little searching).
At 83X and 150X the ring structure is clear though I cannot see the star in
the center.

I think M57 is generally easier than M1, because it has a somewhat more
"stellar" appearance, and if you know where to look you can pick it up even
from slightly polluted skies.

Seds lists M57 as 1.4 x 1.0 arcmins, and M1 as 6x4 arcmins, the former having
a surface brightness of 8.8, the later having a surface brightness of 8.4.
Note however that M1 is much wider, so its brightness gets spread out
considerably.

I was able to pick up M57 from central Athens on a good 3.5+ night. M1 is
impossible from Athens. I would imagine that with a 12" Dob, I MAY be able to
pick it up, provided I knew where to look exactly.

Thanks.
--
Ioannis
-------
The best way to predict reality, is to know exactly what you DON'T want.

Hi:

Difficult? Somewhat. Impossible? Hardly. I've seen it in a Short Tube
80 from my heavily light polluted backyard--on a good night. On an
average night it's not overly easy in a 4-inch, and on a poor night,
it's invisible in both.

Make sure you're on the right field (use a decent SA2000 level star
atlas or a computer program). Also, stick with the 10mm, as that will
help darken the field. Forget the OIII. The only use for that is to
help bring out the filimentary structure, and you'll need dark skies
for that. The UHC won't help much/at all, either.

If you have a finder _scope_ use that. The Telrad can help you get the
finder on the proper area of the sky, but, as you'll find as you go
after the harder stuff, in the city, the Telrad just ain't much good. A
finder will help you see the dim guide stars which, in concert with a
detailed chart, will lead you to the tougher stuff. Get a 50mm finder
for the XT if you do not have one. Or, just _use the computer_.

Don't be embarrassed to use the computer. In the city, star hopping can
be tough. Telrads are great under dark skies, and developing knowledge
of the sky is great, but in light pollution, you're in frustration with
certain objects in certain areas. Try Telradding the Virgo galaxies and
you will see what I mean. ;-)

Keep after it with the 12 and you will be rewarded. In the city, what
you are looking for is a dimmish oval of nebulosity, not the famous
"crab" shape.




Joe S. wrote:
Is M1 a difficult object from light polluted skies?

I live in a city, in an apartment complex with the usual "security"
lighting. I see only the brightest stars with my naked eye. For example,
in Orion, I see only Betelgeuse, Rigel, Bellatrix, Saiph, three stars in the
belt, and 2-3 stars in the sword.

I have tried for the last three nights to find M1 with no luck -- not even
the faintest fuzzy appears. I'm using an XT-12, 12-inch dob; collimation is
dead on. I've tried different eyepieces -- 35mm PanOptic (43X), 18mm Radian
(83X), 10mm Radian (150X) -- no luck.

I am starhopping using a Telrad and the instructions in "Turn Left at
Orion" -- find Zeta Tauri -- very faint naked eye from my location -- then
slightly NW of Zeta Tauri, toward El Nath.

Have tried with OII and Orion UltraBlock filters -- not a wisp.

For comparison
-- M31 is not naked eye but is readily visible with 8X42 and 10X50 binos.
With my scope, I see the glowing center surrounded by a fuzzy cloud but I
can't see the long, elliptical extensions of M31 -- too much light pollution
I assume.
-- I can find M57, Ring Nebula, with no problem (takes a little searching).
At 83X and 150X the ring structure is clear though I cannot see the star in
the center.

My scope has the Orion Intelliscope feature but I'm trying to find objects
by starhopping. I guess my next step is to use the Intelliscope to find
M1 -- if it's visible at all.

Thanks.

Joe S. wrote:
Is M1 a difficult object from light polluted skies?

It depends on how light-polluted it is. I used to live in a place
where the south-facing limiting magnitude was in the 4.1 to 4.2
neighborhood, and from there, it took several times trying to catch even
a glimpse of M1 through my C5+. Where I live now, the limiting
magnitude is about a half-magnitude higher (that is, the skies are
better), and M1--though still difficult--is much more tractable.

My advice is to try a variety of different magnifications: The power
"sweet spot" may be very narrow. I found it to be so, at least. Also,
I did find the UltraBlock to be of some help, but pretty slim, though.

M31 and M57 are not very good indicators; they are among the easiest of
the Messier objects to see. M1 is definitely in the harder half under
light-polluted skies.

--
Brian Tung
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Hi Joe,

My name is Math Heijen and I live in the Netherlands in a suburban area.
I have a naked eye magnitude between 4.7 and 5.3, depending on the
transparency. Usually its around 4.9. I also have a 12-inch since a few
months (Orion Optics UK) with the Argo Navis digital setting circles. I
have seen M1, but just barely, a few weeks ago. I used the computer to
locate it, and I can only advise you to use it a city when you try to
locate an object like M1. When Messier published his first catalogue,
which held 45 objects, M1 was by far the faintest object. It is much
harder than M31. So try it again using your intelliscope. Use your
panoptic and when the computer tells you that it should be in the field
of view, slightly tick against the eyepiece so you get a little
movement. This helps in "seeing" faint objects. I never tried any
filters on M1, but from what I heard, the OIII filter workd best.

Hope this helps.

Clear skies
Math

http://www.backyard-astro.com/blog

Have tried with OII and Orion UltraBlock filters -- not a wisp.


Check out http://pages.sbcglobal.net/raycash/filters.htm for a nice catalog
of objects and their response to different filters. M1 is faint, and you
may be expecting too much. These faint fuzzies pop out a little more when
you move the scope a bit, or even just tap on it. I congratulate you on
trying to find stuff yourself - my sons, our friends, and I find that
tracking stuff down is often at least as exciting as the actual observation.
Let's face it, it is hard to get excited about the view of M1 in a smallish
scope from light-polluted sites, though it certainly helps to know a bit
about the target. We also "discover" a lot of stuff ourselves!

If you can't see it, then just move on to something else and come back to it
when it is higher in the sky, a better/darker night, etc. In fact, why not
join your local astro club, and attend some events at their dark(er)
observing site? You will find all kinds of knowledgeable folks to observe
with.

Dennis

"Joe S." wrote in message
...
Is M1 a difficult object from light polluted skies?

I live in a city, in an apartment complex with the usual "security"
lighting. I see only the brightest stars with my naked eye. For example,
in Orion, I see only Betelgeuse, Rigel, Bellatrix, Saiph, three stars in
the belt, and 2-3 stars in the sword.

I have tried for the last three nights to find M1 with no luck -- not even
the faintest fuzzy appears. I'm using an XT-12, 12-inch dob; collimation
is dead on. I've tried different eyepieces -- 35mm PanOptic (43X), 18mm
Radian (83X), 10mm Radian (150X) -- no luck.

I am starhopping using a Telrad and the instructions in "Turn Left at
Orion" -- find Zeta Tauri -- very faint naked eye from my location -- then
slightly NW of Zeta Tauri, toward El Nath.

Have tried with OII and Orion UltraBlock filters -- not a wisp.

For comparison
-- M31 is not naked eye but is readily visible with 8X42 and 10X50 binos.
With my scope, I see the glowing center surrounded by a fuzzy cloud but I
can't see the long, elliptical extensions of M31 -- too much light
pollution I assume.
-- I can find M57, Ring Nebula, with no problem (takes a little
searching). At 83X and 150X the ring structure is clear though I cannot
see the star in the center.

My scope has the Orion Intelliscope feature but I'm trying to find objects
by starhopping. I guess my next step is to use the Intelliscope to find
M1 -- if it's visible at all.

Thanks.


Many, many thanks to all who have offered suggestions and encouragement.

I'm going to continue trying for M1 without using the computer. I think
also I'll wait until much later at night after M1 is around zenith -- that's
the darkest part of my skies here -- the city is to the west and a shopping
mall is 1/2 mile east, so, overhead is ever so slightly darker.

I'll leave the filters off and will double-check my starhopping.

Thanks again and I'll check back to let everyone know when I see it.

M1 is famous as the first object on Messier's list, as the remanent of a
famous supernova, and it's an astrophysicist's playground, but it's by
no means visually spectacular. On nights when the transparency isn't
too good, it's very difficult. With my C8, I've never seen a hint of
any of the lacey filamentary structure so prominent on photographs. Try
the stunt with moving the scope a bit to see if you can see any
"movement," and use averted vision. Once you think you might have
spotted it, try a higher power, (within reason,) to darken the sky a
bit. Look for a little grey cloud about the shape of a roast turkey.
Marty