NASA culture worse than industry?

Two commissions have written up that NASA culture is a major cause of our
two shuttle accidents. They site that engineers are afraid to speak up as
part of the problem.

My question is this: Is the culture worse at NASA than other places, or does
NASA have problems that are in other industries, and these other places get
away with it because the problem with their culture doesn't result in a
highly visible catastrophic event. Maybe a comparison to oil refineries and
chemical plants would be useful. In these industries, catastrophic events
can happen if the culture allows unsafe practices to continue to happen.

Danny Dot

Danny Dot wrote:

Two commissions have written up that NASA culture is a major cause of our
two shuttle accidents. They site that engineers are afraid to speak up as
part of the problem.

My question is this: Is the culture worse at NASA than other places, or does
NASA have problems that are in other industries, and these other places get
away with it because the problem with their culture doesn't result in a
highly visible catastrophic event. Maybe a comparison to oil refineries and
chemical plants would be useful. In these industries, catastrophic events
can happen if the culture allows unsafe practices to continue to happen.

Danny Dot

I work in the Steel industry in the UK. It can certainly be counted has
a dangerous occupation since we've had 11 fatalities in the last 10
years. Although when you consider the inherent dangers in the steel
industry we're not doing that badly I guess?
We have a major push at the moment in regards to safety but the general
consensus is that production comes before safety.
I guess the accident statistics over the next couple of years will
reveal whether the safety initiatives were succesfull or not.

--
Gareth Slee
http://www.meroffice.com

"Gareth Slee" wrote in message
. ..
Danny Dot wrote:

Two commissions have written up that NASA culture is a major cause of our
two shuttle accidents. They site that engineers are afraid to speak up
as
part of the problem.

My question is this: Is the culture worse at NASA than other places, or
does
NASA have problems that are in other industries, and these other places
get
away with it because the problem with their culture doesn't result in a
highly visible catastrophic event. Maybe a comparison to oil refineries
and
chemical plants would be useful. In these industries, catastrophic
events
can happen if the culture allows unsafe practices to continue to happen.

Danny Dot

I work in the Steel industry in the UK. It can certainly be counted has
a dangerous occupation since we've had 11 fatalities in the last 10
years. Although when you consider the inherent dangers in the steel
industry we're not doing that badly I guess?
We have a major push at the moment in regards to safety but the general
consensus is that production comes before safety.
I guess the accident statistics over the next couple of years will
reveal whether the safety initiatives were succesfull or not.

--

Let me ask you this: If management made a decision that you thought was
unsafe, would you feel comfortable speak up against the decision? At NASA
most would not. Management would bully the person that spoke up. At least
this is my opinion of the matter.

Danny Dot
www.mobbinggonemad.org
Gareth Slee
http://www.meroffice.com

"Danny Dot" wrote:

Let me ask you this: If management made a decision that you thought was
unsafe, would you feel comfortable speak up against the decision? At NASA
most would not. Management would bully the person that spoke up. At least
this is my opinion of the matter.

Ah yes - the engineer puts his 'comfort' and job ahead of the lives
he's been entrusted with. But its all managements fault.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Danny Dot wrote:

Let me ask you this: If management made a decision that you thought was
unsafe, would you feel comfortable speak up against the decision? At NASA
most would not. Management would bully the person that spoke up. At least
this is my opinion of the matter.

Danny Dot
www.mobbinggonemad.org
Gareth Slee
http://www.meroffice.com


I'd have no qualms in speaking up. Have done many times and have never
felt any pressure from management.
Whether they take any notice of my concerns is another matter though...

--
Gareth Slee
http://www.meroffice.com

"Danny Dot" wrote in message
...
Two commissions have written up that NASA culture is a major cause of our
two shuttle accidents. They site that engineers are afraid to speak up as
part of the problem.

My question is this: Is the culture worse at NASA than other places, or
does NASA have problems that are in other industries, and these other
places get away with it because the problem with their culture doesn't
result in a highly visible catastrophic event. Maybe a comparison to oil
refineries and chemical plants would be useful. In these industries,
catastrophic events can happen if the culture allows unsafe practices to
continue to happen.

There are companies in the US that take a "shoot the messenger" approach to
management. Consequently, middle to upper management in those companies
always hear that "everything is fine" even when the schedules keep slipping,
customers keep complaining, etc.

In private industry, the bigger problem I'm seeing is sending jobs overseas.
You're replacing highly experienced, highly paid, American employees with a
whole lot of under experienced, low pay (high for their area) people located
in the far east (India, China, South Korea, and etc). In the end, I think
you get what you pay for. From what I've seen, culturally people in the far
east don't like to tell management any sort of bad news. It seems to be
that they don't want their boss to see their weakness or perhaps it's just
that they don't want to disappoint authority, or something. At any rate,
this is so bad that coming from the US culture, you never know if any of
your workers in the far east really understand what you want them to do.

Combine the US shoot the messenger management with the far east don't let
management know things aren't going well and you've got a recipe for
absolute disaster.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"Danny Dot" wrote in message
...
Two commissions have written up that NASA culture is a major cause of our
two shuttle accidents. They site that engineers are afraid to speak up
as part of the problem.

My question is this: Is the culture worse at NASA than other places, or
does NASA have problems that are in other industries, and these other
places get away with it because the problem with their culture doesn't
result in a highly visible catastrophic event. Maybe a comparison to oil
refineries and chemical plants would be useful. In these industries,
catastrophic events can happen if the culture allows unsafe practices to
continue to happen.

There are companies in the US that take a "shoot the messenger" approach
to management. Consequently, middle to upper management in those
companies always hear that "everything is fine" even when the schedules
keep slipping, customers keep complaining, etc.

In private industry, the bigger problem I'm seeing is sending jobs
overseas. You're replacing highly experienced, highly paid, American
employees with a whole lot of under experienced, low pay (high for their
area) people located in the far east (India, China, South Korea, and etc).
In the end, I think you get what you pay for. From what I've seen,
culturally people in the far east don't like to tell management any sort
of bad news. It seems to be that they don't want their boss to see their
weakness or perhaps it's just that they don't want to disappoint
authority, or something. At any rate, this is so bad that coming from the
US culture, you never know if any of your workers in the far east really
understand what you want them to do.


I found this true in working with programmers from the Far East. They would
say "Yes, I know what you want and can code it." When they didn't
understand a word you said. I learned to look for body language to let me
know they knew what they needed to code.

Danny Dot

"Danny Dot" wrote in message
...
I found this true in working with programmers from the Far East. They
would say "Yes, I know what you want and can code it." When they didn't
understand a word you said. I learned to look for body language to let me
know they knew what they needed to code.

That's hard to do when you're using the telephone, email, and programs like
Microsoft Net Meeting to communicate.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

"Danny Dot" wrote in
:

Two commissions have written up that NASA culture is a major cause of
our two shuttle accidents. They site that engineers are afraid to
speak up as part of the problem.

My question is this: Is the culture worse at NASA than other places,
or does NASA have problems that are in other industries, and these
other places get away with it because the problem with their culture
doesn't result in a highly visible catastrophic event. Maybe a
comparison to oil refineries and chemical plants would be useful. In
these industries, catastrophic events can happen if the culture allows
unsafe practices to continue to happen.

I suggest you read up on last year's BP refinery explosion in Texas City -
and the can of worms it opened regarding BP's safety record as a whole.

NASA is far from unique in this regard.

--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

Danny Dot wrote:

Two commissions have written up that NASA culture is a major cause of our
two shuttle accidents. They site that engineers are afraid to speak up as
part of the problem.

My question is this: Is the culture worse at NASA than other places, or does
NASA have problems that are in other industries, and these other places get
away with it because the problem with their culture doesn't result in a
highly visible catastrophic event. Maybe a comparison to oil refineries and
chemical plants would be useful. In these industries, catastrophic events
can happen if the culture allows unsafe practices to continue to happen.

Can you say ENRON?
Erin Brockovich?
FBI?
WMD Report?
9/1l Commission Report?