Mars Sample Return - The Real Space Race

China launching one crewed flight per year? Yawn.

Here is the real space race.

"http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0311/15marssample/"

Who will be first to bring back a piece of Mars?

- Ed Kyle

In article ,
ed kyle wrote:
Who will be first to bring back a piece of Mars?

Several meteorite collectors have already managed it.

(And a sample you get from on or near the Martian surface actually isn't
likely to be much less random than the meteorites. Geologists would be
much more interested in bedrock from a known location than in random
surface rubble of unknown origin. But that's going to take drilling,
and not just a couple of meters down either.)
--
MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer
pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. |

ed kyle wrote:
China launching one crewed flight per year? Yawn.

Here is the real space race.

"http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0311/15marssample/"

Who will be first to bring back a piece of Mars?

- Ed Kyle

The Soviet Unione planned a MSR mission as early as the 1970s to steal
some of the show to the Viking probes. See my website
http://utenti.lycos.it/paoloulivi/5nm.html
Paolo

Henry Spencer wrote:

In article ,
ed kyle wrote:


Who will be first to bring back a piece of Mars?



Several meteorite collectors have already managed it.

(And a sample you get from on or near the Martian surface actually isn't
likely to be much less random than the meteorites. Geologists would be
much more interested in bedrock from a known location than in random
surface rubble of unknown origin. But that's going to take drilling,
and not just a couple of meters down either.)


Isn't there any places on Mars where the surface is bedrock?

Alain Fournier

(Henry Spencer) wrote in message ...
In article ,
ed kyle wrote:
Who will be first to bring back a piece of Mars?

Several meteorite collectors have already managed it.

(And a sample you get from on or near the Martian surface actually isn't
likely to be much less random than the meteorites. Geologists would be
much more interested in bedrock from a known location than in random
surface rubble of unknown origin. But that's going to take drilling,
and not just a couple of meters down either.)

You are in part correct. Some geologist want bedrock, others want
"aqueously-deposited sedimentary rock" and some others want dust
samples. Meteorites are interesting, but they lack the context a nice
rock from a know spot on Mars would have...almost any spot...just as
long as you know it's Latitude and Longitude.

--Chris Vancil

In article ,
CL Vancil wrote:
(And a sample you get from on or near the Martian surface actually isn't
likely to be much less random than the meteorites. Geologists would be
much more interested in bedrock from a known location than in random
surface rubble of unknown origin...

...Meteorites are interesting, but they lack the context a nice
rock from a know spot on Mars would have...almost any spot...just as
long as you know it's Latitude and Longitude.

And as long as you know -- how? -- that it's not impact ejecta from
somewhere else entirely. (Although admittedly, it's *probably* from
relatively nearby.) This is not an undisturbed surface.
--
MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer
pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. |

In article ,
ed kyle wrote:
Several meteorite collectors have already managed it.

The symbolic value of a Mars sample return mission may well
exceed its scientific value, and would certainly exceed any
meteorite collection.

People are willing to pay only so much for symbolism. It's not clear
that a Mars sample return, at least one done as "business as usual",
is affordable.

Right now, as ESA proceeds with plans to launch the first
half of its sample return mission in 2011...

Plans which realistically must be considered uncertain, given the funding
problems of ESA's science program and the likelihood of cost growth in a
challenging mission being done by traditional aerospace contractors.

European Mars exploration has been notable of late for the number of
canceled projects.

...I think that Europe's 2011 launch
plan makes 2011 a "need be" for NASA's mission. NASA,
being primarily a U.S. political symbolism outfit, would
sooner cancel the mission than expose itself to the
humiliation of bringing back the second sample from Mars.

Bear in mind that there is a fair chance that the first attempt to return
a sample will fail. Last I heard, neither ESA nor NASA is even planning
to take the elementary precaution of sending two identical spacecraft.
--
MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer
pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. |

(Henry Spencer) wrote in message ...
In article ,
ed kyle wrote:
Several meteorite collectors have already managed it.

The symbolic value of a Mars sample return mission may well
exceed its scientific value

People are willing to pay only so much for symbolism.

Europeans seem willing to pay. They hate the U.S., if
news reports are to be believed, but don't have a problem
taking its money. The U.S. is running a $12 billion
*monthly* trade deficit with Europe, second only to China.
Airbus is beating Boeing. Nokia dominates Motorola.
Damlier *owns* 1/3rd of the so-called U.S. "Big Three".
Europe stopped GE/Honeywell and will soon have a big say
in Microsoft's future, etc. A European win in the Mars
sample return race would clearly demonstrate Europe's
growing economic, scientific, and engineering power.
It would certify NASA's incompetance and highlight the
relatively weakening condition of the U.S. in general.

- Ed Kyle

On 18 Nov 2003 08:06:49 -0800, (ed kyle) wrote:

Europeans seem willing to pay.

Evidence?

They hate the U.S., if
news reports are to be believed, but don't have a problem
taking its money.

They always hate us until the Nazis or the Kaiser start knocking on
their door. Europe's 911 system seems to be connected to the White
House. Judging by the Continent's complete surrender to Islamic
Extremists, there is little chance that will change. The big question
is whether Washington will answer the 911 call next time.

The U.S. is running a $12 billion
*monthly* trade deficit with Europe, second only to China.
Airbus is beating Boeing. Nokia dominates Motorola.
Damlier *owns* 1/3rd of the so-called U.S. "Big Three".

Well, Chrysler had fallen to much less than 1/3 of the domestic auto
production long before it was sold.

Europe stopped GE/Honeywell and will soon have a big say
in Microsoft's future, etc.

Many have tried, many have failed...

A European win in the Mars
sample return race would clearly demonstrate Europe's
growing economic, scientific, and engineering power.

That's a tall order for an agency that has yet to land a single
spacecraft on Mars, compared to the US which is 3 for 4.

It would certify NASA's incompetance

I don't see this NASA incompetence in the Mars race that you do.
It is NASA, not ESA, that currently has two spacecraft operating in
Mars orbit. True, NASA lost two Mars spacecraft in 1998, but you have
to actually fly spacecraft to lose them... ESA's flown exactly one,
and its not there yet.

and highlight the
relatively weakening condition of the U.S. in general.

You ignore Joint Strike Fighter, which will pretty much render all
other export fighters obsolete and looks destined to give Eurofighter
an embarrassingly short production life. It will also be interesting
to see who wins the British tanker contract. Boeing looks fairly
strong against Airbus there. If Boeing's 767 reconditioning wins,
Airbus will essentially be out of the large military airframe market,
except for the endlessly delayed A400M.

Brian

Alain Fournier wrote in message .. .
Henry Spencer wrote:

In article ,
ed kyle wrote:


Who will be first to bring back a piece of Mars?



Several meteorite collectors have already managed it.

(And a sample you get from on or near the Martian surface actually isn't
likely to be much less random than the meteorites. Geologists would be
much more interested in bedrock from a known location than in random
surface rubble of unknown origin. But that's going to take drilling,
and not just a couple of meters down either.)


Isn't there any places on Mars where the surface is bedrock?


Yes there are many place bedrock is exposed. Many other types of rock
and dust are of interest for geologists and folks designing spacesuit
and other equipment for Mars.

--Chris Vancil