.....Geologists Finally Explain Martian Spheres!

Spheres
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2932M1M1.HTML
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M2M1.HTML

Layered rock
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2589L7M1.HTML



After almost two years the Meridiani spheres on Mars remain a mystery.
They remain unidentified. Simple spheriods the size of bb's, made up
of mostly iron and silica, and no one can seem to figure out how
they were formed. Nasa originally identified the spheres as hematite
concretions. A positive identification as non-living mineral concretions.
But they retracted that id within a week or two, and since then have
referred to them as only 'hematite rich spheres'. Which is a generic
lawyer-like description, not a positive identification.

The near perfect spherical shape, and consistency from
one sphere to another, rules out their formation in a wet
substrate ....if the explanation is to be non-living.

This means another method for their formation has to be contrived
for the spheres to be the result of non-living processes. The only
remaining alternatives are volcanism or surface impacts. So the
geologists have offered this explanation. That the spheres formed
as a result of substrate that was heated by the ejecta from nearby
surface impacts. Even though there's ample evidence of hydrothermal
activity at Meridiani, that has to be ignored, since formation in
water means the only explanation would be microbes.

The following research shows that on earth only living processes
can explain the structure of the spheres. Which is why the
geologists have to contrive an impact related theory.



Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVI (2005)
PROCESSES OF FORMATION OF SPHEROIDAL CONCRETIONS
AND INFERENCES FOR "BLUEBERRIES" IN MERIDIANI
PLANUM SEDIMENTS.

"In summary, simple nucleation controlled growth will form clumps
or bands of cement not spheroids. Spheroidal nodular concretions
on Earth result from spherical diffusion of products of
diagenetic reactions involving organics"
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2148.pdf




The composition of the spheres cannot be explained by
living processes. The structure of the spheres cannot
be explained by geological processes.

It's a tie!

The spheres cannot be explained by either geologists or
biologists after...two years of study. That is a clue.

The most mysterious thing ever discovered off this planet and
the Phd's of this world are all at a loss. Don't know, they say.
Not completely sure...inconclusive.

Just like Viking, just like the AHL meteorite......a tie... between
living and non-living explanations. Exactly inconclusive for life
three straight times now. If it's not geology as we know it, and
it's not life as we know it, there's only one logical possibility
left.

The spheres are neither...and both.

Darwin has taught us all about how life evolves from point A
to point B. The great debate that rages as we speak between
science and religion is all about how life.....first... started.
The big question is Creation.

The Opportunity spheres, imo, represent the missing link between
geology and biology. A transitional form combining equal measures
of both, without being quite either. The spheres have the
composition of simple mineral concretions, they have the
structure of microbial life.

If true, if the spheres represent the phase transition between
geology and biology, which the evidence supports, then
they would represent perhaps the single greatest scientific
discovery ....possible.

Creation itself.

I firmly believe, after studying the spheres for almost two years, that
this is the only logical conclusion possible. A perfect tie between the
geologists and biologists means Creation has been discovered at last.



And now they're finding spheres at the Spirit site as well.
Different size.
http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/a...0P2956M2M1.JPG

Amidst an unexplained and isolated patch of dark Meridiani like soil.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2267R2M1.HTML



BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE
IN THE BAHAMAS.
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXII (2001) 1068.pdf

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analy-sis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the fractured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, characterized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:"
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf





An astrobiological perspective on Meridiani Planum

"Opportunity's discoveries on Meridiani Planum hand
astrobiologists half a glass of water. Local environments
may well have been habitable during at least part of the
interval when Meridiani outcrop rocks formed. On the
other hand, Meridiani sedimentary rocks support models
of martian environmental history that that might have
frustrated prebiotic chemistry. Only continuing exploration
will tell us whether the figurative glass of martian
water is half full or half empty."
http://www.geol.umd.edu/~kaufman/ppt...y/Knoll_05.pdf





NASA Technical Memorandum
WORKSHOP ON THE SOCIETAL IMPLICATIONS
OF ASTROBIOLOGY
http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/wor...tal_report.pdf


"One of the reasons for this is a sense of urgency: confirmation of
extraterrestrial life could occur at any time and in any of a number of
ways. When it occurs, we may have only limited control over the
situation."
page 36


"The discovery may stimulate a worldwide resurgence in religious activity."
page 29


" .... it is extremely important for us to be highly knowledgeable
about the likely reactions of different constituencies (the press, various
religious groups, political leaders, and the general public).
We would be foolish and negligent if we did not study such reactions
well ahead of time and make state-of-the art preparations for major
discoveries."
page 6



Jonathan




s

Thought-provoking and generally provocative.

Thanks for taking the time and care to share this.


"jonathan" wrote in message
. ..

Spheres
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2932M1M1.HTML
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M2M1.HTML

Layered rock
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2589L7M1.HTML

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:45:57 GMT, "Jim Oberg"
wrote:

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

Spheres
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2932M1M1.HTML
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M2M1.HTML

Layered rock
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2589L7M1.HTML

Thought-provoking and generally provocative.

Thanks for taking the time and care to share this.

I have been wondering for a while if NASA should give up their "follow
the water trail to find life" idea and instead switch this to "follow
the methane trail to find life".

Cardman
http://www.cardman.org
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Cardman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:45:57 GMT, "Jim Oberg"
wrote:

"jonathan" wrote in message
...

Spheres

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2932M1M1.HTML

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M2M1.HTML

Layered rock

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2589L7M1.HTML

Thought-provoking and generally provocative.

Thanks for taking the time and care to share this.

I have been wondering for a while if NASA should give up their "follow
the water trail to find life" idea and instead switch this to "follow
the methane trail to find life".



ESA appears to be following up on that, but Nasa isn't
even looking it seems.




"Observation of Methane, Formaldehyde and HS (hydrogen sulfide):
Extant Life On Mars?"


"Vittorio Formisano, Ph.D., Principal Investigator of Planetary Fourier
Spectrometer (PFS), Dr. Formisano designed the Planetary Fourier
Spectrometer (PFS) for placement on the European Space
Agency's Mars Express Orbiter."


"A symbiosis of methanogenic bacteria with methanothrophic bacteria
in the Martian underground can be an alternative interpretation (to
geothermal)
and looks more likely."


"September 20, 2004 Ischia Island, Italy - Today at the International Mars
Conference held September 19-23, by the Italian Space Agency, physicist
Vittorio Formisano, Ph.D., presented results from his analysis of the
Martian
atmosphere in a paper entitled, "Observation of Methane, Formaldehyde
and HS (hydrogen sulfide): Extant Life On Mars?" Dr. Formisano designed
the Planetary Fourier Spectrometer (PFS) for placement on the European
Space Agency's Mars Express Orbiter. Back on May 6, 2004, when I
interviewed him for Earthfiles and radio, he said his PFS data indicated
molecules of formaldehyde in the Martian atmosphere and told me,
"Formaldehyde is destroyed in the Martian atmosphere within 7.5 hours.
There is no way that formaldehyde can exist and remain for a long time
in the Martian atmosphere. If (formaldehyde) confirmed, possibly
life on Mars today, yes."


http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news....tegory=Science


.......................


Interview:


Michael Mumma, Ph.D., Chief Scientist, Planetary and Astrophysical
Sciences, Laboratory for Extraterrestrial Physics, NASA/Goddard
Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland:


"It is, of course, one of the possibilities that we wish to investigate
most
thoroughly. The first possibility is that there are forms of life below the
permafrost region on Mars which are reducing carbon and releasing
methane in the process, and probably several other organic gases as well.
Another possibility is that it is an abiotic process * that it does not
involve
actual life itself. It could be a signature of a geothermal process."


Has NASA Confirmed Formaldehyde
in Martian Atmosphere?


"We have not confirmed the presence of formaldehyde on Mars, largely
because we have not spent much time searching for it. There are other
workers who have claimed the presence of formaldehyde from time to time.
But these have not generally been accepted by the scientific community.
So, if Dr. Formisano has a firm detection of formaldehyde, this probably
would be the very first one that would be accepted by the
scientific community."






Cardman
http://www.cardman.org
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Jim Oberg" wrote in message
...

Thought-provoking and generally provocative.

Thanks for taking the time and care to share this.



Thanks! I appreciate it very much.





"jonathan" wrote in message
. ..

Spheres

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2932M1M1.HTML

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M2M1.HTML

Layered rock

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2589L7M1.HTML

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:46:24 -0500, "jonathan"
wrote:
- Refer:

Spheres
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2932M1M1.HTML
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2933M2M1.HTML

Layered rock
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2589L7M1.HTML



After almost two years the Meridiani spheres on Mars remain a mystery.
They remain unidentified. Simple spheriods the size of bb's, made up
of mostly iron and silica, and no one can seem to figure out how
they were formed. Nasa originally identified the spheres as hematite
concretions. A positive identification as non-living mineral concretions.
But they retracted that id within a week or two, and since then have
referred to them as only 'hematite rich spheres'. Which is a generic
lawyer-like description, not a positive identification.

The near perfect spherical shape, and consistency from
one sphere to another, rules out their formation in a wet
substrate ....if the explanation is to be non-living.

This means another method for their formation has to be contrived
for the spheres to be the result of non-living processes. The only
remaining alternatives are volcanism or surface impacts. So the
geologists have offered this explanation. That the spheres formed
as a result of substrate that was heated by the ejecta from nearby
surface impacts. Even though there's ample evidence of hydrothermal
activity at Meridiani, that has to be ignored, since formation in
water means the only explanation would be microbes.

The following research shows that on earth only living processes
can explain the structure of the spheres. Which is why the
geologists have to contrive an impact related theory.



Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVI (2005)
PROCESSES OF FORMATION OF SPHEROIDAL CONCRETIONS
AND INFERENCES FOR "BLUEBERRIES" IN MERIDIANI
PLANUM SEDIMENTS.

"In summary, simple nucleation controlled growth will form clumps
or bands of cement not spheroids. Spheroidal nodular concretions
on Earth result from spherical diffusion of products of
diagenetic reactions involving organics"
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2148.pdf




The composition of the spheres cannot be explained by
living processes. The structure of the spheres cannot
be explained by geological processes.

It's a tie!

The spheres cannot be explained by either geologists or
biologists after...two years of study. That is a clue.

The most mysterious thing ever discovered off this planet and
the Phd's of this world are all at a loss. Don't know, they say.
Not completely sure...inconclusive.

Just like Viking, just like the AHL meteorite......a tie... between
living and non-living explanations. Exactly inconclusive for life
three straight times now. If it's not geology as we know it, and
it's not life as we know it, there's only one logical possibility
left.

The spheres are neither...and both.

Darwin has taught us all about how life evolves from point A
to point B. The great debate that rages as we speak between
science and religion is all about how life.....first... started.
The big question is Creation.

The Opportunity spheres, imo, represent the missing link between
geology and biology. A transitional form combining equal measures
of both, without being quite either. The spheres have the
composition of simple mineral concretions, they have the
structure of microbial life.

If true, if the spheres represent the phase transition between
geology and biology, which the evidence supports, then
they would represent perhaps the single greatest scientific
discovery ....possible.

Creation itself.

I firmly believe, after studying the spheres for almost two years, that
this is the only logical conclusion possible. A perfect tie between the
geologists and biologists means Creation has been discovered at last.



And now they're finding spheres at the Spirit site as well.
Different size.
http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/a...0P2956M2M1.JPG

Amidst an unexplained and isolated patch of dark Meridiani like soil.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...P2267R2M1.HTML



BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE
IN THE BAHAMAS.
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXII (2001) 1068.pdf

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analy-sis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the fractured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, characterized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:"
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf





An astrobiological perspective on Meridiani Planum

"Opportunity's discoveries on Meridiani Planum hand
astrobiologists half a glass of water. Local environments
may well have been habitable during at least part of the
interval when Meridiani outcrop rocks formed. On the
other hand, Meridiani sedimentary rocks support models
of martian environmental history that that might have
frustrated prebiotic chemistry. Only continuing exploration
will tell us whether the figurative glass of martian
water is half full or half empty."
http://www.geol.umd.edu/~kaufman/ppt...y/Knoll_05.pdf





NASA Technical Memorandum
WORKSHOP ON THE SOCIETAL IMPLICATIONS
OF ASTROBIOLOGY
http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/wor...tal_report.pdf


"One of the reasons for this is a sense of urgency: confirmation of
extraterrestrial life could occur at any time and in any of a number of
ways. When it occurs, we may have only limited control over the
situation."
page 36


"The discovery may stimulate a worldwide resurgence in religious activity."
page 29


" .... it is extremely important for us to be highly knowledgeable
about the likely reactions of different constituencies (the press, various
religious groups, political leaders, and the general public).
We would be foolish and negligent if we did not study such reactions
well ahead of time and make state-of-the art preparations for major
discoveries."
page 6



Jonathan




s





What a huge effort to go to for an argument from ignorance.
Do you think that you can swamp your audience with sheer bulk of
ignorance?

Michael Gray wrote:

What a huge effort to go to for an argument from ignorance.

What a huge effort you made in trimming your post.

Do you think that you can swamp your audience with sheer bulk of
ignorance?

Do you think you can swamp the usenet with the sheer bulk
of your content free comments and wasted bandwidth?

http://cosmic.lifeform.org

"Michael Gray" wrote in message
...


What a huge effort to go to for an argument from ignorance.
Do you think that you can swamp your audience with sheer bulk of
ignorance?



This is a legitimate criticism. And yes I think I can.

But you'll have to play fair and give me a chance to make it.
It's not a small effort to argue from ....uncertainty.

A more accurate description of the argument I'm making is to base a
conclusion based on the total system ...uncertainty...displayed by the s
pheres. While classical means search for certainty, the non-linear
mathematics I hobby in do just the opposite. And if you'll bear with me
for a moment as I have to intro an entire science few are familiar with
to make this point.

The chaos and complexity sciences are all about studying the
properties that exist when a system stands poised at a phase
transition between it's own possible extremes in behavior.
Much like a cloud stands critically poised between it's condensed
and evaporated forms.

To quote Cambridge physics lecture notes.

"The word criticality has a very precise meaning in equilibrium
thermodynamics. It is used in connection with phase transitions
(strictly speaking continuous transitions). When the temperature
of the system is precisely equal to the transition temperature,
.......something extraordinary happens..........."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/052...lance&n=283155


It's those extraordinary properties I study, and I strongly believe
to be displayed clearly by the spheres.

Briefly, the primary properties that appear at these dynamic
states provide the source for self-organization. This is where
systems spontaneously begin organizing to higher levels
from within. This is where systems self tune to the optimum
and emergent properties appear.

The source of all order.

These properties are nothing short of the underlying
source for evolution, and I mean for both living /and/
physical systems. Darwinian evolution is now considered
a special case of a far broader concept of self organization
that is universal.

Imo, this is a breathtaking concept and advance in
understanding order of all kinds.

Systems that stand persistently poised at a critical state
or phase transition generate emergent properties. These
are properties that ...cannot...be understood by an
examination of component details. This is because
criticality, also called an 'edge state' or 'edge of chaos'
is when the system components behave simultaneously with
the very least predictability and greatest volatility. Their
trajectories are intractably entangled in phase space, to use
the parlance. Like a cloud, a continuous sequence of
step changes, chaotically or randomly changing from
water to air and back.

To quickly judge whether a system is in fact at this
critical edge state, one merely needs to analyze the
primary system variables in terms of their relative
complexity. In short when the primary system variables
display maximum....uncertainty... all at once, the system
is at the edge state.

It is at this edge or uncertain state where self organization and
emergent order is expected.

The spheres at first glance are simple mineral concretions
to a geologist. A very well known science. Yet their structure, their
self similarity or uniform shapes prevent the geologists from
nailing down the precise process that would create them.

On earth only life creates such emergent order.

The spheres at first glance appear to be microbial concretions
to a biologist. But their simple composition and lack of internal
structure or biosignatures prevent the biologists from coming
to that conclusion.

Both sides have equally good arguments for their case.
Both sides come up just short. If they were either after
two years of intense study ...we'd know...as both cases
represent rather simple forms of each respective discipline.

Mineral or microbial concretions are NOT rocket science.
But in fact represent the very simplest forms of order for
both disciplines.

It the spheres are EITHER we'd know right off the bat guys!

I mean COME ON, use just a little common sense please!!

The spheres display a maximum level possible of total system
uncertainty. They are at an edge state. They display emergent
order, they are self organized.

The spheres stand poised at a persistent critical threshold between
their own extremes in possibilities.

And in the case of the spheres the two opposite extremes just
happen to be geology and biology. They are both and neither
at the same time. They take the abstract form of cloud, and
perfectly so.

And this amidst an environment that clearly qualifies as
the 'primordial soup' life is thought to have evolved from.
Mineral rich hydrothermal systems.

And this amidst an unexplained deposits of iron that on
earth almost always are deposited by microbes.

The type of microbes that feeds on sulfates Meridiani is rich
in, and leaves behind iron deposits Meridiani coated with.

The ...very same...types of microbes thought to have been
one of the first, if not the ...very first....life to have evolved
on earth.

The environmental context is nearly perfect for the conclusion that
the spheres represent how geology transitions to biology.

Creation!

Arguing from uncertainly a legitimate one now that chaos theory
and the complexity sciences are finally maturing.

For those that read this far, thanks.


Jonathan




Lunar and Planetary Science XXXV (2004)

"It is this common association of microbes and iron
deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot
crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani
Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The
hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of
their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host
for microorganisms that might have been associated
with their formation [8]."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf


An astrobiological perspective on Meridiani Planum
(perhaps the defining paper so far on Meridiani)

3.1. Acidity and biology

Acidic environments where jarosite and other sulfate
minerals precipitate in association with iron oxides
occur in acid-mine drainage worldwide. The Rio
Tinto river system in southwestern Spain has been
well studied [e.g., [27] and references therein], and
while it has been exacerbated by mining, this system
is natural and includes diagenetically stabilized deposits
up to two million years old [27]. Rio Tinto and other
strongly acidic environments on Earth contain diverse
microorganisms, including bacteria, archaea, and a sur-prisingly
large variety of microbial eukaryotes [33-35].
(These acid drainage systems are not, in general, close
process analogs of martian environments [27], but min-eralogy
and water chemistry suggest that they are in-formative
as state analogs,"
http://www.geol.umd.edu/~kaufman/ppt...y/Knoll_05.pdf


Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars

"Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories
on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in
terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety
of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of
water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures
(Christensen et al., 2000)."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf


ps.

Stock charts display such total system variable uncertainty
very well at times. And when they do universal or self
organized behavior erupts. Internal order begins that is
not ...at all.. dependent on any system specific details.
I'm trying to hint that I'm very successfully testing this
concept in the real world. I know it's valid. And if
your interested in how to play the market using chaos
theory...I'll tell you all about it. And you can see for
yourself how this concepts manifests itself.




s

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:30:34 -0500, "jonathan"
wrote:
- Refer:

"Michael Gray" wrote in message
.. .


What a huge effort to go to for an argument from ignorance.
Do you think that you can swamp your audience with sheer bulk of
ignorance?



This is a legitimate criticism. And yes I think I can.

But you'll have to play fair and give me a chance to make it.
It's not a small effort to argue from ....uncertainty.

Argument from Ignorance.
Why not call it what it is?
If it were from "uncertainty", you'd simply say that you didn't know,
and leave it at that.
Short, sharp, and shiny.
But instead you have to, (once again), pad out your "I don't know, the
scientists aren't sure, so it MUST HAVE BEEN LIFE", into a tedious 500
word amateur essay.

A more accurate description of the argument I'm making is to base a
conclusion based on the total system ...uncertainty...displayed by the s
pheres. While classical means search for certainty, the non-linear
mathematics I hobby in do just the opposite. And if you'll bear with me
for a moment as I have to intro an entire science few are familiar with
to make this point.

I am formally qualified in this very area.
I have a degree in Applied Math from the faculty of Mathematical
Sciences at Adelaide Uni.
I happen to be very familiar with it.
It is not a "hobby" for me.
I am a working scientist.
Non-linear math is an element of my daily work, and has been for the
last 28 years.

And I suggest that if your argument is based on "the total system
....uncertainty...displayed by the spheres", then you have no argument
whatsoever.
It is my professional opinion that you are attempting to apply the
field of "uncertainty" where it just doesn't fit.
"Uncertainty" has nothing to do with hypothesising the origin of these
spherules.
Probability does, though.

The chaos and complexity sciences are all about studying the
properties that exist when a system stands poised at a phase
transition between it's own possible extremes in behavior.
Much like a cloud stands critically poised between it's condensed
and evaporated forms.

I don't agree with this definition, but I'll let it rest at that.

To quote Cambridge physics lecture notes.

"The word criticality has a very precise meaning in equilibrium
thermodynamics. It is used in connection with phase transitions
(strictly speaking continuous transitions). When the temperature
of the system is precisely equal to the transition temperature,
......something extraordinary happens..........."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/052...lance&n=283155


It's those extraordinary properties I study, and I strongly believe
to be displayed clearly by the spheres.

"I strongly believe" being the key phrase there.
I don't happen to share that view.

Briefly, the primary properties that appear at these dynamic
states provide the source for self-organization. This is where
systems spontaneously begin organizing to higher levels
from within. This is where systems self tune to the optimum
and emergent properties appear.

The source of all order.

Unsupported assertion.

These properties are nothing short of the underlying
source for evolution, and I mean for both living /and/
physical systems. Darwinian evolution is now considered
a special case of a far broader concept of self organization
that is universal.

Imo, this is a breathtaking concept and advance in
understanding order of all kinds.

Systems that stand persistently poised at a critical state
or phase transition generate emergent properties. These
are properties that ...cannot...be understood by an
examination of component details. This is because

"Cannot"?
So, if I am able to "understand" one of these emergent properties,
from examination of the component details, this will disprove your
assertion, and by dint of your relying on this argument from
ignorance, your entire premise?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No. (Give special pleading here___________)

criticality, also called an 'edge state' or 'edge of chaos'
is when the system components behave simultaneously with
the very least predictability and greatest volatility. Their
trajectories are intractably entangled in phase space, to use
the parlance. Like a cloud, a continuous sequence of
step changes, chaotically or randomly changing from
water to air and back.

The origin of the Martian spheres is nothing at all "like a cloud" in
equilibrium.

To quickly judge whether a system is in fact at this
critical edge state, one merely needs to analyze the
primary system variables in terms of their relative
complexity. In short when the primary system variables
display maximum....uncertainty... all at once, the system
is at the edge state.

Define what you mean by "uncertainty".
I think that your definition is very different from mine.

It is at this edge or uncertain state where self organization and
emergent order is expected.

Expected by whom?

The spheres at first glance are simple mineral concretions
to a geologist. A very well known science. Yet their structure, their
self similarity or uniform shapes prevent the geologists from
nailing down the precise process that would create them.

On earth only life creates such emergent order.

Rubbish.

Perfect hexagonal structures are formed by water.
You call them snowflakes.
Spheres, more perfect than the martian ones, (which are far from
uniform or even spherical), are formed by wave action on pebbles.

Your argment from ignorance reaches a crescendo at this point, and it
where it gets so very stupid, that I have no desire to continue
pointing this out.

The spheres at first glance appear to be microbial concretions
to a biologist. But their simple composition and lack of internal
structure or biosignatures prevent the biologists from coming
to that conclusion.

Both sides have equally good arguments for their case.
Both sides come up just short. If they were either after
two years of intense study ...we'd know...as both cases
represent rather simple forms of each respective discipline.

Oh intercourse.
Another personal argument from ignorance:
The experts say they don't know for sure, so Junior Scientist
proclaims that it MUST BE LIFE!

Mineral or microbial concretions are NOT rocket science.
But in fact represent the very simplest forms of order for
both disciplines.

It the spheres are EITHER we'd know right off the bat guys!

I mean COME ON, use just a little common sense please!!

I fervently wish that you would.
For my blood pressure's sake, if nothing else.

The spheres display a maximum level possible of total system
uncertainty. They are at an edge state. They display emergent
order, they are self organized.

The spheres stand poised at a persistent critical threshold between
their own extremes in possibilities.

And in the case of the spheres the two opposite extremes just
happen to be geology and biology. They are both and neither
at the same time. They take the abstract form of cloud, and
perfectly so.

And this amidst an environment that clearly qualifies as
the 'primordial soup' life is thought to have evolved from.
Mineral rich hydrothermal systems.

And this amidst an unexplained deposits of iron that on
earth almost always are deposited by microbes.

The type of microbes that feeds on sulfates Meridiani is rich
in, and leaves behind iron deposits Meridiani coated with.

The ...very same...types of microbes thought to have been
one of the first, if not the ...very first....life to have evolved
on earth.

The environmental context is nearly perfect for the conclusion that
the spheres represent how geology transitions to biology.

Creation!

What?

Arguing from uncertainly a legitimate one now that chaos theory
and the complexity sciences are finally maturing.

For those that read this far, thanks.

It was touch and go, but I stuck it out.
I'm sure I'll regret it.

Jonathan




Lunar and Planetary Science XXXV (2004)

"It is this common association of microbes and iron
deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot
crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani
Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The
hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of
their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host
for microorganisms that might have been associated
with their formation [8]."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf


An astrobiological perspective on Meridiani Planum
(perhaps the defining paper so far on Meridiani)

3.1. Acidity and biology

Acidic environments where jarosite and other sulfate
minerals precipitate in association with iron oxides
occur in acid-mine drainage worldwide. The Rio
Tinto river system in southwestern Spain has been
well studied [e.g., [27] and references therein], and
while it has been exacerbated by mining, this system
is natural and includes diagenetically stabilized deposits
up to two million years old [27]. Rio Tinto and other
strongly acidic environments on Earth contain diverse
microorganisms, including bacteria, archaea, and a sur-prisingly
large variety of microbial eukaryotes [33-35].
(These acid drainage systems are not, in general, close
process analogs of martian environments [27], but min-eralogy
and water chemistry suggest that they are in-formative
as state analogs,"
http://www.geol.umd.edu/~kaufman/ppt...y/Knoll_05.pdf


Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars

"Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories
on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in
terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety
of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of
water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures
(Christensen et al., 2000)."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf


ps.

Stock charts display such total system variable uncertainty
very well at times. And when they do universal or self
organized behavior erupts. Internal order begins that is
not ...at all.. dependent on any system specific details.
I'm trying to hint that I'm very successfully testing this
concept in the real world. I know it's valid. And if
your interested in how to play the market using chaos
theory...I'll tell you all about it. And you can see for
yourself how this concepts manifests itself.




s

"Michael Gray" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:30:34 -0500, "jonathan"
wrote:
- Refer:

"Michael Gray" wrote in message
.. .


What a huge effort to go to for an argument from ignorance.
Do you think that you can swamp your audience with sheer bulk of
ignorance?



This is a legitimate criticism. And yes I think I can.

But you'll have to play fair and give me a chance to make it.
It's not a small effort to argue from ....uncertainty.

Argument from Ignorance.
Why not call it what it is?
If it were from "uncertainty", you'd simply say that you didn't know,
and leave it at that.


Leaving the unknown alone is what the scientific community
is doing in this case. Which is the opposite of what science is about.
This rover mission was about understanding the hematite
anomaly at Meridiani. The hematite is entirely in the spheres.
Almost none in the soil or rocks. Just the spheres, which
is another argument for life btw. Understanding the spheres
is the primary science goal for this mission.

It's why they went to Meridiani, to understand where
the hematite came from. And they are leaving it alone, and
not even admitting they haven't figured it out.

I don't find that acceptable at all.



Short, sharp, and shiny.
But instead you have to, (once again), pad out your "I don't know, the
scientists aren't sure, so it MUST HAVE BEEN LIFE", into a tedious 500
word amateur essay.


It is amateur, that doesn't make it wrong. It's up to you to show
it is, you haven't done that yet. All I see is so far is insults and
bragging. That's not a refutation. Does the concept of eliminating
all possibilities except for one register with you? Part of this argument
is that very capable experts in both fields have searched for an
answer within their specialties and failed. In addition the context limits
the possible explanations further. If there's only one explanation
left....and....it entirely fits within all the observations, why is it
inappropriate to claim it's the best answer?

And once again, this is a logical argument, not one based on
facts that determine the solution. There are no definitive facts
to explain the spheres. I'm taking the only alternative left.




A more accurate description of the argument I'm making is to base a
conclusion based on the total system ...uncertainty...displayed by the s
pheres. While classical means search for certainty, the non-linear
mathematics I hobby in do just the opposite. And if you'll bear with me
for a moment as I have to intro an entire science few are familiar with
to make this point.

I am formally qualified in this very area.
I have a degree in Applied Math from the faculty of Mathematical
Sciences at Adelaide Uni.
I happen to be very familiar with it.
It is not a "hobby" for me.
I am a working scientist.
Non-linear math is an element of my daily work, and has been for the
last 28 years.


Twenty eight years? Complexity science isn't even ten years old.
The first complete textbook wasn't published until '97. And the
same book is the ...only..online textbook on this science as we
speak. If you haven't read it, how can you say you're up to date?
And is the source for my reading on the subject.
http://necsi.org/publications/dcs/index.html




And I suggest that if your argument is based on "the total system
...uncertainty...displayed by the spheres", then you have no argument
whatsoever.


Only if you fail to understand the system properties that emerge
when all the primary system variables of a system are complex/uncertain
at the same time. Let me give you an example just how total
uncertainty defines systems behavior.

Lets use stock chart behavior as an example. As the data is
nicely laid out already and is very suitable for making predictions.
I'll post some currently running charts to demonstrate the
following criteria and properties. So you can see for yourself.

A stock chart has only three variables, price, volume and time period.
When all three variables are simultaneously at their most uncertain
or complex, then the system self organizes and displays universal
behavior NOT dependent on the system specific details.

The complex realm for each variable is simply midway between
the practical opposite extremes in possibility.

For time frame. The practical extremes in the market in trading
frames of reference are the day traders on one end. That trade
in minutes or hours. The opposite extreme is the longs that trade
in months and years. The complex realm for this variable is
what is between, days or weeks. A pattern that takes place
over a five or ten day chart would be a complex time frame.
The most uncertain time period of all. Certainty in the market
is found over very long or very short time periods.

The variable for price has one extreme under two dollars.
As that is when the stock is booted from the exchanges.
The upper extreme would be the blue-chips. A price that
reflects a high level of stability. Typically over ten dollars
a share is considered stable. So the complex realm for
price is between 2 and 10 dollars. This is the most uncertain
range in prics as it's neither teetering on delisting, or breaking
out into stability. Could go either way in other words.

Volume is done in same way, neither dead or highly active.

These are the initial conditions needed for a perturbation
to set off self organized behavior.

The perturbation must also be complex, or display the highest
level of uncertainty. It must not be so large as to easily define
the future, or so small as to be overwhelmed by other factors.

To judge if the perturbation is complex the same analysis
as the initial conditions are used. Except that the ...rates of change
of volume and price after the perturbation must be complex.

For price the rate of change after the perturbation must be
midway between the extremes in possibility. One extreme
is no change, the other straight down. So a scale independent
fall near 45 degrees in the complex realm. Total change in price
must also be complex, so the price must fall miday between
total and zero change. A fifty percent loss. These values must
be adjusted for practical realities, and the market anticipates.
So a total price fall of forty percent is a complex change.

The same analysis for change in volume after the perturbation is
used. It must increase in a complex way after the perturbation.
Typically doubling or tripling over the fall. It may seem I'm describing
a very rare set of circumstances. But any panic selling or buying spree
quite often finds itself within all the specified values.

When all these values and their rates of change are complex
at the same time, the sytem behavior no longer is dependent
on system specifics. The stock behavior can be reliably predicted
without even knowing the name of the company, let alone any
internal details.

And that is an important point. As is allows these concepts
to cross disciplines as the details of the components are
not relevant at criticality. All systems behave the same way
in this dynamic state.

Doing a simple stock screen gives these
/current/ candidates.
http://prosearch.businessweek.com/bu...?mode=advanced

Ticker dcn, on a ten day chart, will reach these thresholds if if
falls to about 4.80.

Ticker vc if it makes it to about 4.20, ten day chart

Ticker v.cvq if it makes it to about 2.50, ten day chart

Ticker meh if it makes it to about 3.25, ten day chart

Ticker sift if it makes it to about 7, ten day chart

Ticker lpth if it falls to about 4.75, five day chart

And those are just the tickers that came up today!!!
Not so rare. And compare the charts to each other
and watch their behavior. Ask yourself, how can
all these completely different companies, systems,
show such similar behavior? The only relations to
each other are their levels of total uncertainty or
complexity.


Many of these will bottom out short of the forty percent
threshold, at about thirty. But if they do reach the
maximum level of uncertainty they will all behave in
exactly the same way.

They will behave as a thunderstorm. A clap of lighting at the max
dynamic/complex state, a large spike in volume, and the system will
undergo a phase transition to a new trend. Which will be to bounce
off the defined bottom some ten or fifteen percent. After that
the perturbation is over, the sun has gone down. Time to move on.

The stock I'm playing now, just for gigles, is an experiment in
other realms. Look at ticker xdsl on a one month chart.
If you don't see the bifurcation you don't know what that
word means. It's a really pretty pattern.


I'm doing this to make a point. When a system resides near
it's maximum level of uncertainty it displays very recognizable
patterns. After a while it takes but a glance to recognize
this dynamic state.

Which is to say when something is neither and both.
When every aspect of something is as uncertain as possible.
It has certain characteristics that are easily recognizable

The spheres have only two variables, their composition and
shape. Neither defines the spheres/system completely. And
equally so. I've seen it a hundred times. There's only one
thing that can do that, and it isn't erosion or random
geological processes. Massive self similarity is something
only life does.

This should be obvious!




Systems that stand persistently poised at a critical state
or phase transition generate emergent properties. These
are properties that ...cannot...be understood by an
examination of component details. This is because

"Cannot"?
So, if I am able to "understand" one of these emergent properties,
from examination of the component details, this will disprove your
assertion, and by dint of your relying on this argument from
ignorance, your entire premise?


Are you going to tell me you can understand an emotion from
tracing the firing of each neuron? This is what I'm talking about.
Or market forces from each business?
Or the shape of cloud from the position of each
molecule?

Unless you improperly define what an emergent system
property is, no, you can't do it. Show me~




[ ] Yes
[ ] No. (Give special pleading here___________)


Jonathan

s






criticality, also called an 'edge state' or 'edge of chaos'
is when the system components behave simultaneously with
the very least predictability and greatest volatility. Their
trajectories are intractably entangled in phase space, to use
the parlance. Like a cloud, a continuous sequence of
step changes, chaotically or randomly changing from
water to air and back.

The origin of the Martian spheres is nothing at all "like a cloud" in
equilibrium.

To quickly judge whether a system is in fact at this
critical edge state, one merely needs to analyze the
primary system variables in terms of their relative
complexity. In short when the primary system variables
display maximum....uncertainty... all at once, the system
is at the edge state.

Define what you mean by "uncertainty".
I think that your definition is very different from mine.

It is at this edge or uncertain state where self organization and
emergent order is expected.

Expected by whom?

The spheres at first glance are simple mineral concretions
to a geologist. A very well known science. Yet their structure, their
self similarity or uniform shapes prevent the geologists from
nailing down the precise process that would create them.

On earth only life creates such emergent order.

Rubbish.

Perfect hexagonal structures are formed by water.
You call them snowflakes.
Spheres, more perfect than the martian ones, (which are far from
uniform or even spherical), are formed by wave action on pebbles.

Your argment from ignorance reaches a crescendo at this point, and it
where it gets so very stupid, that I have no desire to continue
pointing this out.

The spheres at first glance appear to be microbial concretions
to a biologist. But their simple composition and lack of internal
structure or biosignatures prevent the biologists from coming
to that conclusion.

Both sides have equally good arguments for their case.
Both sides come up just short. If they were either after
two years of intense study ...we'd know...as both cases
represent rather simple forms of each respective discipline.

Oh intercourse.
Another personal argument from ignorance:
The experts say they don't know for sure, so Junior Scientist
proclaims that it MUST BE LIFE!

Mineral or microbial concretions are NOT rocket science.
But in fact represent the very simplest forms of order for
both disciplines.

It the spheres are EITHER we'd know right off the bat guys!

I mean COME ON, use just a little common sense please!!

I fervently wish that you would.
For my blood pressure's sake, if nothing else.

The spheres display a maximum level possible of total system
uncertainty. They are at an edge state. They display emergent
order, they are self organized.

The spheres stand poised at a persistent critical threshold between
their own extremes in possibilities.

And in the case of the spheres the two opposite extremes just
happen to be geology and biology. They are both and neither
at the same time. They take the abstract form of cloud, and
perfectly so.

And this amidst an environment that clearly qualifies as
the 'primordial soup' life is thought to have evolved from.
Mineral rich hydrothermal systems.

And this amidst an unexplained deposits of iron that on
earth almost always are deposited by microbes.

The type of microbes that feeds on sulfates Meridiani is rich
in, and leaves behind iron deposits Meridiani coated with.

The ...very same...types of microbes thought to have been
one of the first, if not the ...very first....life to have evolved
on earth.

The environmental context is nearly perfect for the conclusion that
the spheres represent how geology transitions to biology.

Creation!

What?

Arguing from uncertainly a legitimate one now that chaos theory
and the complexity sciences are finally maturing.

For those that read this far, thanks.

It was touch and go, but I stuck it out.
I'm sure I'll regret it.

Jonathan




Lunar and Planetary Science XXXV (2004)

"It is this common association of microbes and iron
deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot
crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani
Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The
hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of
their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host
for microorganisms that might have been associated
with their formation [8]."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf


An astrobiological perspective on Meridiani Planum
(perhaps the defining paper so far on Meridiani)

3.1. Acidity and biology

Acidic environments where jarosite and other sulfate
minerals precipitate in association with iron oxides
occur in acid-mine drainage worldwide. The Rio
Tinto river system in southwestern Spain has been
well studied [e.g., [27] and references therein], and
while it has been exacerbated by mining, this system
is natural and includes diagenetically stabilized deposits
up to two million years old [27]. Rio Tinto and other
strongly acidic environments on Earth contain diverse
microorganisms, including bacteria, archaea, and a sur-prisingly
large variety of microbial eukaryotes [33-35].
(These acid drainage systems are not, in general, close
process analogs of martian environments [27], but min-eralogy
and water chemistry suggest that they are in-formative
as state analogs,"
http://www.geol.umd.edu/~kaufman/ppt...y/Knoll_05.pdf


Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars

"Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories
on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in
terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety
of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of
water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures
(Christensen et al., 2000)."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf


ps.

Stock charts display such total system variable uncertainty
very well at times. And when they do universal or self
organized behavior erupts. Internal order begins that is
not ...at all.. dependent on any system specific details.
I'm trying to hint that I'm very successfully testing this
concept in the real world. I know it's valid. And if
your interested in how to play the market using chaos
theory...I'll tell you all about it. And you can see for
yourself how this concepts manifests itself.




s