Retro Aerospace announces new monopropellant

In article ,
Russell Wallace wrote:
What is wrong with FLOX? It has a number of advantages.

You seem to be implying FLOX is a real substance, so I'm curious, what
is it?

A mixture (various mixtures, actually) of liquid fluorine and liquid
oxygen. There was considerable experimenting with FLOX in the late 50s
and early 60s. FLOX-30 (30% fluorine) has mildly better Isp and density
than LOX, and is hypergolic with most fuels, while still being mild enough
to get along with hardware designed for LOX. FLOX-70 has performance
approaching that of fluorine, while still having enough oxygen in it to
burn hydrocarbon fuels without difficulties. (Straight fluorine is not a
good choice for hydrocarbons, because the carbon either remains C or burns
to CF4, both of which have lousy gas properties and hurt performance.
Putting enough oxygen in the mix to take the carbon to CO improves the gas
properties enough to be worth the slightly-less-energetic combustion.)

NASA contemplating "fluorinating" later versions of the Saturn V -- with
FLOX-30 in the first stage and straight fluorine in the upper stages -- as
a performance upgrade, although with some trepidation about cost and
availability: as of 1965, launching a single fluorinated Saturn V would
use the entire US annual fluorine production!

The one launcher where FLOX really got considered seriously was Vanguard,
whose first stage was rather undersized for its job. Vanguard did spend a
bit of money investigating the possibility of using FLOX-20 in the first
stage, and probably would have done it if funding hadn't been so tight.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

Henry Spencer wrote:

In article ,
Russell Wallace wrote:


What is wrong with FLOX? It has a number of advantages.


You seem to be implying FLOX is a real substance, so I'm curious, what
is it?



A mixture (various mixtures, actually) of liquid fluorine and liquid
oxygen.



I once saw a cutaway of a German (IIRC) designed rocket stage that was
supposed to use fluorine; I think it was being designed in the early
60's...do you know anything about that one? Its engine bell was really
huge and shallow compared to most designs.

Pat

Henry Spencer wrote:
In article ,


NASA contemplating "fluorinating" later versions of the Saturn V --
with
FLOX-30 in the first stage and straight fluorine in the upper stages
-- as
a performance upgrade, although with some trepidation about cost and
availability: as of 1965, launching a single fluorinated Saturn V
would
use the entire US annual fluorine production!

The one launcher where FLOX really got considered seriously was
Vanguard,
whose first stage was rather undersized for its job. Vanguard did
spend a
bit of money investigating the possibility of using FLOX-20 in the
first
stage, and probably would have done it if funding hadn't been so
tight.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry
Spencer
-- George Herbert |




ANALYSIS OF FLUORINE ADDITION TO THE VANGUARD FIRST STAGE - Jan 1957

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1993089676.pdf




Analysis of chemical upper stage of launch vehicles - Hydrogen-oxygen
upper stage for Atlas-Centaur and Saturn IB-Centaur launch vehicle -
Hydrogen-fluorine propellants Jan 1, 1965

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1965024399.pdf


Rusty

Pat Flannery wrote in
:



Henry Spencer wrote:

In article ,
Russell Wallace wrote:


What is wrong with FLOX? It has a number of advantages.


You seem to be implying FLOX is a real substance, so I'm curious, what
is it?



A mixture (various mixtures, actually) of liquid fluorine and liquid
oxygen.



I once saw a cutaway of a German (IIRC) designed rocket stage that was
supposed to use fluorine; I think it was being designed in the early
60's...do you know anything about that one? Its engine bell was really
huge and shallow compared to most designs.

I vaguely remember that one; almost looked like a single pintle injector
inside a simple hemisphere. Probably didn't get near the Isp a
Laval nozzle could have, but would have been a lot simpler to build.
Probably radiation cooling rather than regenerative.

--Damon

On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:36:54 -0600, Rusty wrote
(in article . com):


Henry Spencer wrote:
In article ,


NASA contemplating "fluorinating" later versions of the Saturn V --
with
FLOX-30 in the first stage and straight fluorine in the upper stages
-- as
a performance upgrade, although with some trepidation about cost and
availability: as of 1965, launching a single fluorinated Saturn V
would
use the entire US annual fluorine production!

The one launcher where FLOX really got considered seriously was
Vanguard,
whose first stage was rather undersized for its job. Vanguard did
spend a
bit of money investigating the possibility of using FLOX-20 in the
first
stage, and probably would have done it if funding hadn't been so
tight.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry
Spencer
-- George Herbert |




ANALYSIS OF FLUORINE ADDITION TO THE VANGUARD FIRST STAGE - Jan 1957


http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...089676_1993089
676.pd
f




Analysis of chemical upper stage of launch vehicles - Hydrogen-oxygen
upper stage for Atlas-Centaur and Saturn IB-Centaur launch vehicle -
Hydrogen-fluorine propellants Jan 1, 1965


http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...024399_1965024
399.pd
f


Rusty


Well, hell, Rusty. Now you're just showing off. ;-)

--
Herb Schaltegger, GPG Key ID: BBF6FC1C
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
http://www.angryherb.net

In article ,
Pat Flannery wrote:
I once saw a cutaway of a German (IIRC) designed rocket stage that was
supposed to use fluorine; I think it was being designed in the early
60's...do you know anything about that one? Its engine bell was really
huge and shallow compared to most designs.

I don't think I've heard of the stage.

That bell is probably an "expansion-deflection" nozzle, one of the more
obscure competitors of the aerospike (and one that did not fare as well in
testing). It's sort of an inside-out aerospike, with a central pintle in
the throat deflecting the flow outward, and how closely the flow sticks to
the bell wall determined by the pressure in the central region, aft of the
pintle. (The problem is that aspiration effects tend to pump that central
pressure down well below ambient, and the net effect is that it doesn't
altitude-compensate well. It *does* still get a high expansion ratio in a
relatively short nozzle, which might have uses.)
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:14:34 +0000, gcash wrote:

OK, that proves it... "Rusty" is the code name for an AI in the NASA
archives system that just continually parses a newsfeed!

Which means Rusty us a subroutine of Henry!
Rusty is robably being trained up to take over
Henry's s.s.h. duties while Henry devotes his
higher functions to... certain priorities.

-gc

--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:43:09 GMT, Chuck Stewart
wrote:

Which means Rusty us a subroutine of Henry!

....Which, if we're all Jim Oberg, tends to really confuse the
geneology around here.

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

gcash wrote:

OK, that proves it... "Rusty" is the code name for an AI in the NASA archives
system that just continually parses a newsfeed!



We will all think this is funny... until one day when we try to get on
the newsgroup...and this way too calm and soothing voice says:
"I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that is something I simply cannot allow to
occur."

Rusty...Rusty... find us a pdf or two...we're half crazy from
downloading the things posted by you.
We all need fiber optic connections....to keep up with your pdf detections.
But what is this? Who would miss: "Things about Ham's sex life you never
knew."? :-)

Pat

Henry Spencer wrote:

In article ,
Pat Flannery wrote:


I once saw a cutaway of a German (IIRC) designed rocket stage that was
supposed to use fluorine; I think it was being designed in the early
60's...do you know anything about that one? Its engine bell was really
huge and shallow compared to most designs.



I don't think I've heard of the stage.


I'm trying to track the book with the picture down, I think it's around
here somewhere

That bell is probably an "expansion-deflection" nozzle, one of the more
obscure competitors of the aerospike (and one that did not fare as well in
testing). It's sort of an inside-out aerospike, with a central pintle in
the throat deflecting the flow outward, and how closely the flow sticks to
the bell wall determined by the pressure in the central region, aft of the
pintle. (The problem is that aspiration effects tend to pump that central
pressure down well below ambient, and the net effect is that it doesn't
altitude-compensate well. It *does* still get a high expansion ratio in a
relatively short nozzle, which might have uses.)


That sounds like it, alright; I found it interesting that a German
company was working on it IIIRC.

Pat