Trust But Verify ...

rk wrote:

The Buran had been detected only by chance; the Soviets did not realize
the KH-11 was a reconnaissance satellite. Whenever a KH-9 satellite had
overflown the test center where the Buran was being built, activities had
been suspended and the Buran covered by netting ...


I sort of doubt that they wouldn't know that KH-11 was a recon sat, both
it's orbital path and altitude would have differentiated it from a
ferret satellite, plus they would have taken photos of it in orbit, and
it would have looked different from a SIGINT or RORSAT.


Clearly Buran was not a copy of the US Shuttle.

You are joking, aren't you? Even they finally admitted they had ripped
the shuttle off in the same way they ripped the B-29 off as the Tu-4,
though Buran wasn't as exact of a coy as the Tu-4 was.
Speaking of Soviet copies, the Su-25 "Frogfoot" ground attack aircraft:
http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/russia/su-25.gif
...and the Northrop A-9, the competition to the A-10:
http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/usa/northrop_a-9.gif
As to other Soviet/Russian copies, ever see something that looks like
this before?:
http://207.151.154.167/catalog/image...8/12155757.jpg
http://207.151.154.167/catalog/image...8/12155808.jpg
http://207.151.154.167/catalog/image...8/12155821.jpg
This is the Myasishchev M-67 LK-M high altitude recon plane design;
given this and the A-9, I'd say that Northrop had a mole or two on its
payroll.

So I am curious about the
rest of the book and perhaps a good topic for some, er, discussion.

That would be one way to put it. :-)

Pat

As to other Soviet/Russian copies, ever see something that looks like
this before?:
http://207.151.154.167/catalog/image...8/12155757.jpg
http://207.151.154.167/catalog/image...8/12155808.jpg
http://207.151.154.167/catalog/image...8/12155821.jpg
This is the Myasishchev M-67 LK-M high altitude recon plane design;
given this and the A-9, I'd say that Northrop had a mole or two on its
payroll.

Rather, they hired the same LGM for consultants. Or the same nazis from
Gothaer Waggonfabrik...

"Pat Flannery" wrote in
I sort of doubt that they wouldn't know that KH-11 was a recon sat, both
it's orbital path and altitude would have differentiated it from a
ferret satellite, plus they would have taken photos of it in orbit, and
it would have looked different from a SIGINT or RORSAT.

There is a delicious story involving deliberate US deception here.

Our side misled the Russkies into NOT worrying about a bird that
obviously WAS in a reccesat-type orbit, or so it is said.

I have been assured by deep-inside veterans that a) the story is true,
and b) the story is false.

Tamas Feher wrote:


Rather, they hired the same LGM for consultants. Or the same nazis from
Gothaer Waggonfabrik...


More likely Horten, given the overall design. One of the Horten brothers
claims that Northrop representative came to see him in regards to why
their flying wings were more stable than Northrop's, and he put them on
to the pointed "Bat Tail" of the Horten designs as being the key feature
in their success; the original B-2 design had a single pointed bat tail
as opposed to the three that the finished design ended up with.
Meanwhile, back on the infiltration of Northrop front, a interesting
cutaway from China: http://airkiller.myrice.com/bomber/gfx/b2/b2_cv.gif
I assume that this is based on publicly released information, at least I
hope so.
I'd hate to see a back-engineered version go on sale at my local Walmart
store for $5000.00 ;-)

Pat

JimO wrote:

There is a delicious story involving deliberate US deception here.

Our side misled the Russkies into NOT worrying about a bird that
obviously WAS in a reccesat-type orbit, or so it is said.

I have been assured by deep-inside veterans that a) the story is true,
and b) the story is false.


How does The Cigarette Smoking Man figure into all this? :-D

Pat

Rather, they hired the same LGM for consultants. Or the same
nazis from Gothaer Waggonfabrik...


More likely Horten, given the overall design.

Gothaer Waggonfabrik made the jet-engined version (Go-229) of the Horten
IX. gliders. One of them is in the USA.

cutaway from China: http://airkiller.myrice.com/bomber/gfx/b2/b2_cv.gif
I assume that this is based on publicly released information, at least
I
hope so. I'd hate to see a back-engineered version go on sale at my
local Walmart store for $5000.00 ;-)

It would be rather like 50USD and the NRA would like it. Gives a new
meaning to the 2nd amendment.

Pat Flannery wrote


I sort of doubt that they wouldn't know that KH-11 was a recon sat, both
it's orbital path and altitude would have differentiated it from a
ferret satellite, plus they would have taken photos of it in orbit, and
it would have looked different from a SIGINT or RORSAT.


See http://www.fas.org/spp/military/prog.../tm120402.html

Allen Thomson wrote:


See http://www.fas.org/spp/military/prog.../tm120402.html


Then there's the rumor that they actually took command of the satellite
and used it to photograph _our_ missile sites and send the data to them,
"Ice Station Zebra" style.
But that seems pretty far-fetched.

Pat

"rk" wrote in message
...
When a copy of the competitor's box was bought and disassembled
(before I joined) they found a hole in the front of the sheet metal of the
case exactly where it was in our company's. And the hole in our company's
case was there because of an ooops and they decided to just go with it as
is
and saved an iteration. *That* was a mindless copy.

Reminds me of a Star Trek short story I've read. Scotty needs a specialized
part that he can't duplicate onboard, but they're in a first contact
situation with buggers that are *extremely good* at copying things down to
the molecular level. Out of desperation, he gave them the part, and they
came back with duplicates that had the exact same wear. It took quite a bit
of effort to get them to understand he wanted a replacement that was *new*.

In article ,
Pat Flannery wrote:


JimO wrote:

There is a delicious story involving deliberate US deception here.

Our side misled the Russkies into NOT worrying about a bird that
obviously WAS in a reccesat-type orbit, or so it is said.

I have been assured by deep-inside veterans that a) the story is true,
and b) the story is false.


How does The Cigarette Smoking Man figure into all this? :-D

That's *obvious* it's -not- a _pipe_dream_. groan.