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In following several threads discussing alternatives for the Columbia
during its final ascent, it seemed RTLS and TAL both had some tough issues associated with them. After reading a cited description of RTLS, I think I better understand John Young's statement, when asked about actually test-flying an RTLS to verify it's availability as an abort option said, "you don't need to practice bleeding." Maybe it can be done, but man, it does sound scary. I read a brief reference to a contingency abort and I wondered what would that option look like. Could the crew command a MECO, make a shortened entry and then when in the envelope, use the pole to parachute to (hopefully) a sea rescue in the Mid-Atlantic? Obviously such a choice would result in the loss of the vehicle. I seem to remember once reading a long time ago in Aviation Week that there am certain portion of the ascent where this is not an option, in other words, a complete MECO, during some parts of the ascent will result in loss of vehicle and crew, end of discussion. If that is so, why? Is it a combination of heating or aerodynamic issues that are beyond the capability of the orbiter airframe? Thanks in advance . . . John Pelchat |
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In article , John Pelchat wrote:
I read a brief reference to a contingency abort and I wondered what would that option look like. To sum it up -- there are two major categories of abort modes. One category is intact aborts -- RTLS, TAL, AOA, ATO, in which they've tested so many possible combinations of things that they're reasonably confident of success of keeping the vehicle and crew in all but the most exceptional circumstances (ie, something *REALLY* bad/odd precludes successful execution). RTLS is one of these cases where they think it *should* work out fine, but really don't want to have to actually test it for real to prove it unless absolutely necessary. Can be done; just not the most fun of things to do, and downright scary in certain phases. The other category is contingency aborts -- where the crew basically needs to abandon the vehicle as soon as is safely possible; ie, it's in real bad shape and won't make orbit or can't handle one of the intact abort modes. Contingency aborts are not guaranteed to result in crew survival, and even slimmer chances of an intact vehicle. These are the abort modes that you pray that you *never* have to encounter at all...ever. Could the crew command a MECO, make a shortened entry and then when in the envelope, use the pole to parachute to (hopefully) a sea rescue in the Mid-Atlantic? Obviously such a choice would result in the loss of the vehicle. I'm no abort expert but I'd seriously question the chances of survival, especially if it's anywhere far from shore since you can be in the water for ever so long before you encounter hypothermia (which soon leads to total body shutdown)... and if it's in the middle of the ocean, it could be a good number of hours before someone gets to them. For an unprotected person in the open water, survival time is usually in seconds (drowning) or minutes (hypothermia). I do know the ACES suits they wear during launch and entry have buoyancy along with artificial light sources that automatically activates and I presume some sort of thermal protection for cold water, but don't know how long it's rated to keep a person alive... or how long the quickest rescue or dropping a raft with supplies would take. I seem to remember once reading a long time ago in Aviation Week that there am certain portion of the ascent where this is not an option, in other words, a complete MECO, during some parts of the ascent will result in loss of vehicle and crew, end of discussion. If that is so, why? Is it a combination of heating or aerodynamic issues that are beyond the capability of the orbiter airframe? Yeah, these are the 'black zones' as I seem to recall, where it's in a precarious position -- outside the range of one abort mode *and* outside the range of the next possible abort mode, which would likely result in a contingency abort (ie, you can reasonably expect to lose the vehicle and good question about crew). It's usually due to simple physics -- you need x amount of energy for each mode; too much or too little will nix it, since you have to do a delicate ballet of sort with the exact right angles, orientation, loads, flight profile, in order to execute an intact abort mode. Even a difference of a few degrees of angle of attack (alpha) can be enough to make or break an abort mode execution. NASA tries *real* hard to limit these black zones where possible; it isn't possible to completely eliminate them all, so pray nothing bad happens during these times. ![]() over the years due to improvements here-and-there (engines, ascent profiles, etc). -Dan |
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In article , Brian Thorn wrote:
Yep. Aerodynamic. I might be wrong (again) but I think losing all three SSMEs during the SRB burn puts too much stress on the Orbiter attachments, and you most likely lose the vehicle. That used to be the case, but in early 2000, they beefed up the strut attach points significantly, to the point where in theory, such a failure mode should still result in the Orbiter remaining on the stack rather than abruptly departing and being shredded by aerodynamic forces. -Dan |
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Dan Foster wrote:
I'm no abort expert but I'd seriously question the chances of survival, especially if it's anywhere far from shore since you can be in the water for ever so long before you encounter hypothermia (which soon leads to total body shutdown)... and if it's in the middle of the ocean, it could be a good number of hours before someone gets to them. And how will you get hypothermia if you come down in Caribbean with it's 80 degree Fahrenheit water? For an unprotected person in the open water, survival time is usually in seconds (drowning) or minutes (hypothermia). Absolutely and totally incorrect. A person in good physical shape can swim or tread water for hours. The time it takes for the onset of hypothermia is directly related to water temp, and ranges from seconds in the arctic to days near the equator. D. -- The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found at the following URLs: Text-Only Version: http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html Enhanced HTML Version: http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html Corrections, comments, and additions should be e-mailed to , as well as posted to sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for discussion. |
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In article , Derek Lyons wrote:
Dan Foster wrote: I'm no abort expert but I'd seriously question the chances of survival, especially if it's anywhere far from shore since you can be in the water for ever so long before you encounter hypothermia (which soon leads to total body shutdown)... and if it's in the middle of the ocean, it could be a good number of hours before someone gets to them. And how will you get hypothermia if you come down in Caribbean with it's 80 degree Fahrenheit water? I don't think any normal trajectory takes it over the Caribbean, short of some spectacular failure. If it really does overfly the Caribbean then obviously, I take that back. ![]() Range safety issues for ET disposal is often one of the big considerations in an intact abort mode (and why they inhibited on 51-F when they did), although I don't know if it plays as a big role in responding to a contingency abort mode. (As a side note: I'd be interested in finding out more about priorities in dealing with a contingency abort mode from the perspective of the FDO, abort designer, abort trainer, or other folks that knows.) For an unprotected person in the open water, survival time is usually in seconds (drowning) or minutes (hypothermia). Absolutely and totally incorrect. A person in good physical shape can swim or tread water for hours. The time it takes for the onset of hypothermia is directly related to water temp, and ranges from seconds in the arctic to days near the equator. That's true. Amended statement to be 'ranging from seconds to days', then. -Dan |
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Herb Schaltegger wrote:
(I don't use gloves because they're forbidden in most dive parks these days - and for good reason.) Sorry it's a bit off topic - but why are they forbidden? --------- William |
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Herb Schaltegger writes:
In article , (Derek Lyons) wrote: And how will you get hypothermia if you come down in Caribbean with it's 80 degree Fahrenheit water? Are you a diver, Derek? You'd get chilled after an hour or two in 80 degree F water if unprotected (e.g., t-shirt and shorts for example). A 3mm wetsuit can extend that to several hours or even longer, depending on body fat. Indeed, from much of my diving experience, and some Navy research done since them, someplace I have a table of estimated survival times for uninsulated immersion in water as a function of temperature, for both sun-exposed and shaded environments. I remember the top of the table was 30 degrees C (although it was a long time for sun-exposed). The only numbers I remember is that in 15 degC water unconciousness occurs in 2 hours. I seem to recall that 80 degrees had an estimated 12 hours before loss of conciousness. I'll see if I can dig it up. And from my own experiences, I know that a two hour long dive in 85 degree water with no wetsuit on does get shivering cold after a while. -- Richard W Kaszeta http://www.kaszeta.org/rich |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Columbia: A Secret Contingency Plan? | [email protected] | Space Shuttle | 21 | January 13th 04 07:37 PM |
to abort or not to abort that is..... | Lynndel Humphreys | Space Shuttle | 50 | October 12th 03 07:50 PM |
abort auto or manual | Lynndel Humphreys | Space Shuttle | 12 | September 24th 03 03:05 AM |
Ladies and Gentlemen of the 51-L Jury | John Maxson | Space Shuttle | 86 | August 19th 03 01:25 PM |
51-L RTLS Abort & RCS Valve Commands | John Maxson | Space Shuttle | 58 | August 17th 03 06:38 PM |