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#1
September 15th 04, 06:37 PM
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"Permanence" - An Adaptationist Solution to Fermi's Paradox?
Catching up on my email I found the following. Seems I have some
sci-fi reading to do as well. Paper: astro-ph/0408521 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:40:52 GMT (617kb) Title: "Permanence" - An Adaptationist Solution to Fermi's Paradox? Authors: Milan M. Cirkovic Comments: 23 pages, 2 figures A new solution of Fermi's paradox sketched by SF writer Karl Schroeder in his 2002. novel "Permanence" is critically investigated. It is argued that this solution is tightly connected with adaptationism - a widely discussed working hypothesis in evolutionary biology. Schroeder's hypothesis has important ramifications for astrobiology, SETI projects, and future studies. Its weaknesses should be explored without succumbing to the emotional reactions often accompanying adaptationist explanations. ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408521 , 617kb) -- Lt. Lazio, HTML police | e-mail: No means no, stop rape. | http://patriot.net/%7Ejlazio/ sci.astro FAQ at http://sciastro.astronomy.net/sci.astro.html 
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#2
September 15th 04, 09:05 PM
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On 15 Sep 2004 13:37:52 -0400, Joseph Lazio
wrote: A new solution of Fermi's paradox sketched by SF writer Karl Schroeder in his 2002. novel "Permanence" is critically investigated. It is argued that this solution is tightly connected with adaptationism - a widely discussed working hypothesis in evolutionary biology. Schroeder's hypothesis has important ramifications for astrobiology, SETI projects, and future studies. Its weaknesses should be explored without succumbing to the emotional reactions often accompanying adaptationist explanations. ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408521 , 617kb) Excellent article, thank you! Novel added to my reading list. While very interesting, though, one thing this theory is not is a good explanation for the Fermi Paradox. Even if we were to accept the premise, it would still be the case that space would offer niches with very strong selective pressure for the ability to live and reproduce in them, irrespective of whether the entities doing so were sentient. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address.
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#3
September 16th 04, 07:24 AM
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Russell Wallace wrote:
CUT I have read some of it, and can't claim that I understood it fully. If intelligence would die out because everything is known, all math and physics are known, they have seen all places etc, then they have to go to earth. So where are they ? Martin.
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#4
September 16th 04, 04:13 PM
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"Joseph Lazio" wrote in message ... Catching up on my email I found the following. Seems I have some sci-fi reading to do as well. Paper: astro-ph/0408521 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:40:52 GMT (617kb) Title: "Permanence" - An Adaptationist Solution to Fermi's Paradox? Authors: Milan M. Cirkovic Comments: 23 pages, 2 figures A new solution of Fermi's paradox sketched by SF writer Karl Schroeder in his 2002. novel "Permanence" is critically investigated. It is argued that this solution is tightly connected with adaptationism - a widely discussed working hypothesis in evolutionary biology. Schroeder's hypothesis has important ramifications for astrobiology, SETI projects, and future studies. Its weaknesses should be explored without succumbing to the emotional reactions often accompanying adaptationist explanations. ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408521 , 617kb) Very interesting article! But... I have the opinion it is really a rather trivial thesis--it is really not necessary to focus on intelligence. We all know from history that civilizations routinely rise and fall and species go extinct. There are many reasons; disasters both astronomical, economic, and ecological are well-known and we can fill a book with a list of other possibilities. (My favorite underestimated one for humankind is the economic one, a complex of resource scarcity, population optimization, and environmental degradation, and many other confounding factors.) I have often commented here on the thesis that the Fermi Paradox might be explained by the simple fact that ETIs rise and fall regularly, and that the key to SETI is the size of this window of detection/contact with humanity. This ain't brain surgery!  The key point that is not addressed in this article, as far as I can see, is that, while the entire Fermi question is mainly dependent on the "Civilization-lifetime" factor, F(l), in the Drake Equation, there is not a clue as to what the theoretical value for F(l) might be assuming this thesis. Apparently, use of the fancy word, "adaptation" [which, btw, seems to me to simply be synonymous with the classic term, "natural selection"] absolves one of any need for, if not quantitative proof, at least some estimates of the magnitude of the thesis effect on this critical value. (note: I could not reproduce the figures in the PDF format, so if they did clarify this issue, I apologize.) ....tonyC -- Lt. Lazio, HTML police | e-mail: No means no, stop rape. | http://patriot.net/%7Ejlazio/ sci.astro FAQ at http://sciastro.astronomy.net/sci.astro.html
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#5
September 16th 04, 06:26 PM
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"Joseph Lazio" wrote in message ... Catching up on my email I found the following. Seems I have some sci-fi reading to do as well. Paper: astro-ph/0408521 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:40:52 GMT (617kb) Title: "Permanence" - An Adaptationist Solution to Fermi's Paradox? Authors: Milan M. Cirkovic Comments: 23 pages, 2 figures A new solution of Fermi's paradox sketched by SF writer Karl Schroeder in his 2002. novel "Permanence" is critically investigated. It is argued that this solution is tightly connected with adaptationism - a widely discussed working hypothesis in evolutionary biology. Schroeder's hypothesis has important ramifications for astrobiology, SETI projects, and future studies. Its weaknesses should be explored without succumbing to the emotional reactions often accompanying adaptationist explanations. ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408521 , 617kb) Interesting read, but: "Intelligence, conciousness, is no more important than the color on a butterfly's wings" !! Naw, I don't think so! ... The level of intelligence will (does) vary greatly, but I don't think it is going to go away anytime soon! Even if we regress to a stone age culture, intelligence will still figure out how to beat the saber tooth tiger or equivalent, and other preditors (as long as they are not more intelligent :-). Technology will rise again. If we die off completely from a deadly virus for example, then perhaps we're gone forever. But if we're "lucky" and we keep learning we can beat even this problem! I'm proactive about life and intelligence, because I suspect it is behind (somehow, someway) the universe itself ... if we and science survive long enough (and why not!) then we'll figure this problem out too. Perhaps we'll invent our own universe. Who the heck knows how far we can go. I don't think there are limits! I think it is far too early to worry so much about the Fermi Question (it is not paradox ... not yet anyway, or may be ever!). Al -- Lt. Lazio, HTML police | e-mail: No means no, stop rape. | http://patriot.net/%7Ejlazio/ sci.astro FAQ at http://sciastro.astronomy.net/sci.astro.html
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#6
September 16th 04, 07:12 PM
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In article ,
Joseph Lazio wrote: Paper: astro-ph/0408521 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:40:52 GMT (617kb) Title: "Permanence" - An Adaptationist Solution to Fermi's Paradox? Authors: Milan M. Cirkovic Comments: 23 pages, 2 figures A new solution of Fermi's paradox sketched by SF writer Karl Schroeder in his 2002. novel "Permanence" is critically investigated. It is argued that this solution is tightly connected with adaptationism - a widely discussed working hypothesis in evolutionary biology. Schroeder's hypothesis has important ramifications for astrobiology, SETI projects, and future studies. Its weaknesses should be explored without succumbing to the emotional reactions often accompanying adaptationist explanations. ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408521 , 617kb) Cool. Did you also pass this along to Karl? http://www.kschroeder.com/ Thanks & Cheers -- Pete Tillman
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#8
September 17th 04, 12:42 AM
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On 15 Sep 2004 13:37:52 -0400, Joseph Lazio
wrote: A new solution of Fermi's paradox sketched by SF writer Karl Schroeder in his 2002. novel "Permanence" is critically investigated. It is argued that this solution is tightly connected with adaptationism - a widely discussed working hypothesis in evolutionary biology. Schroeder's hypothesis has important ramifications for astrobiology, SETI projects, and future studies. Its weaknesses should be explored without succumbing to the emotional reactions often accompanying adaptationist explanations. ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408521 , 617kb) The more I think about it, the more I think this can't possibly work - which is a pity, because I could use it in a science fiction scenario I have in mind. Seems to me there will continue to be selection pressure for the following abilities: - social interaction - toolmaking - language - planning and problem solving And there's way too much to know in that lot to be hardwired into the DNA, so most of it's going to have to be learned afresh by each individual. Seems to me that if you still have to have that lot, you basically have to have intelligence. (Not to mention that in medicine at least, you have to retain the ability to invent things, because you have to keep inventing new antibiotics etc as pathogens evolve immunity to the old ones.) Am I missing something? -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address.
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#9
September 17th 04, 12:50 AM
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Russell Wallace wrote:
[...] The more I think about it, the more I think this can't possibly work - [...] And there's way too much to know in that lot to be hardwired into the DNA, so most of it's going to have to be learned afresh by each [...] Am I missing something? Yes: The written word. External knowledge bases, and 'culture'. So why have we not yet been overrun by AI robots? Cheers, Martin -- ---------- OS? What's that?! - Martin - To most people, "Operating System" is unknown & strange. - 53N 1W - Mandrake 10.0.1 GNU Linux - An OS for Supercomputers & PCs ---------- http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-gb/concept.php3
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#10
September 17th 04, 01:21 AM
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:50:15 GMT, Martin 53N 1W
wrote: Russell Wallace wrote: [...] The more I think about it, the more I think this can't possibly work - [...] And there's way too much to know in that lot to be hardwired into the DNA, so most of it's going to have to be learned afresh by each [...] Am I missing something? Yes: The written word. External knowledge bases, and 'culture'. Exactly: the ability to read, and learn large amounts of complex information in part from books and other media, will be selected for. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address.
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