new sci-fi movie: SUN HELD HOSTAGE

My recent writings about a Mercury swallowed by the Sun or a gas giant
swallowed by the Sun and causing a decrease in Solar radiation gave rise
to the idea of a fusion-poison. The idea that some element or perhaps
even a compound
can poison the fusion process and cool the Sun is great for a
science-fiction
plot movie.

And in our modern day and new century of 21st century opened with
terrorism
on the mind of most nations.

So, what would be the ultimate in acts of Terrorism.

I believe a movie of this would divulge that answer, keeping in mind it
is
science fiction.

But bear with me. Suppose a element or compound is so much of a fusion
poison that a rocket full of the substance when launched and put into a
collision course with the Sun and upon swallowing by the Sun that this
fusion poison would begin to cut the fusion fires of the Sun.

So we have a movie plot of a group of terrorists demanding something or
other
in the future and the threat is that they will launch a rocket aimed at
the Sun
and will poison the fusion fires of the Sun.

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

wolfbane wrote:

Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

d at
the Sun

afaik fusion poisons are used up stoichiometrically in the process. You
would need an active compound that remains as if it were a catalyst.

I have to find out why the fusion chain has such a trouble with Beryllium.

It may hold the key as to the best fusion-poison.

I still think it is fluorine as a gum-mer-up-per.

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

My recent writings about a Mercury swallowed by the Sun or a gas giant
swallowed by the Sun and causing a decrease in Solar radiation gave rise
to the idea of a fusion-poison. The idea that some element or perhaps
even a compound
can poison the fusion process and cool the Sun is great for a
science-fiction
plot movie.

Solarmite: refer to Ed Wood, Plan Nine From Outer Space.

"Archimedes Plutonium" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
My recent writings about a Mercury swallowed by the Sun or a gas giant
swallowed by the Sun and causing a decrease in Solar radiation gave rise
to the idea of a fusion-poison. The idea that some element or perhaps
even a compound
can poison the fusion process and cool the Sun is great for a
science-fiction
plot movie.
Like "Star Trek: Generations"?

Lots of Greetings!
Volker

someone wrote:

In sci.physics, Archimedes Plutonium

wrote
on Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:20:36 -0500
:


wolfbane wrote:

Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

d at
the Sun

afaik fusion poisons are used up stoichiometrically in the process. You
would need an active compound that remains as if it were a catalyst.

I have to find out why the fusion chain has such a trouble with Beryllium.

It may hold the key as to the best fusion-poison.

And here I thought it was carbon. :-) Apparently carbon is
formed in red giants by fusing helium. (There was some
controversy many years ago regarding the theoreticians trying
to overcome the "carbon barrier", if I'm not totally mistaken.
I don't know if it continues to be an issue, or not. Most
likely not.)


I still think it is fluorine as a gum-mer-up-per.

Why would introducing insignificant amount of fluorine gum up
a p-p or CNO reaction?

A disproportionate amount of salts in a star of fluorine, chlorine,bromine,
iodine
should speed up the star death. Because Chemistry still is a very important
active role in the star life. Unlike all the others who claim there is no
chemistry in the Sun and who claim that only "iron" is a fusion poison. I say
there are more fusion poisons than iron.

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

John Devers wrote:

Archimedes Plutonium wrote in message ...


But bear with me. Suppose a element or compound is so much of a fusion
poison that a rocket full of the substance when launched and put into a
collision course with the Sun and upon swallowing by the Sun that this
fusion poison would begin to cut the fusion fires of the Sun.




Kind of like a seed of ice 9 ;-)

Even for sci-fi that stretches the imagination beyond belief. Consider
the incredible mass of the Sun and the extent of the energy involved.
Even attempting to assume such a case it can't happen. It would be
rather like pouring a tiny snippet of cadmium (neutron absorber) into a
nuclear reactor. It would merely require an infinitesimal withdrawal of
the control rods to maintain the same power output from the reactor.
Consider how much mass there is a huge rocket. Compare that mass to the
mass of a star. Get real, dumbo!
FK

someone wrote:
(snipped)


Grist for the mill:

Sun mass: 1.9862 * 10^30 kg
Saturn V launch mass: 2.77 * 10^6 kg

In order to be effective 1 kg of poison would have to stop about
10^24 kg of reactants -- and that's assuming our rocket can deliver
all of its launch mass into space, which it can't; the 3rd stage
can hold a maximum of 1.18 * 10^5 kg, of which 1.54 * 10^4 is
the ship itself, presumably.

This is really not the sort of thought-line I intended in the original post.

More to the point: suppose we go backwards in time to a million years ago
with what was then pre-humans and asked ourselves are these creatures able to alter and change the planet
Earth with their conscious actions? And the answer
would most definitely be that in a million years of future time that these creatures are able to alter
this planet on a large scale-- mass extinctions, Global
Warming, initiate Ice Ages.

Granted, in a million years of time these prehumans have not been able to say
alter the orbit of Earth, but they have come to the point where they could defend
from a deadly asteroid collision.

So the question becomes as to a million years hence into the future. Are there some bits and pieces of
scientific knowledge that humanity is able to affect not only the orbit of Earth but also affect the orbit
of say Jupiter. Or, is there some knowledge of fusion as yet undiscovered that allows humanity some
influence over the Sun itself and that if a asteroid were to warehouse some salt for say 2 or 3 million
years of collecting amoung the various planetary habitats of humanity which in 3 million years hence would
have colonies throughout the solar system.
And that if you warehouse some salt on an Asteroid and then make it collide with the Sun.

What I am saying is that Humanity at present has only a tiny amount of knowledge of how fusion really
works and how the Sun really operates. And that humanity has so many surprizes of knowledge and
understanding of the Sun and fusion that several of these untapped pieces of knowledge may allow Humanity
to have some big influence upon the Sun and perhaps even Jupiter.

At this point in time, it appears as though Jupiter, the gas-giants and the Sun are
impossible to be influenced in any big way by the fact of the existence of humanity. But then we must
factor into that the assessement that our knowledge and understanding of fusion processes is primitive and
we must factor in that the amount of future time ahead for the human species can be tens of millions or
more years into the future.

I am betting on many surprizes and gaping holes in our understanding of fusion
coupled with the idea that a million or more years into the future that this idea of putting the Sun out
or lowering its fusion activity is not a impossibility.

Then again, the Fusion Barrier Principle would say that there is a limit to what any life can do to a
planet given enough mass. FBP may say that Jupiter, gas-giants and Sun are beyond influence from life. But
that say any planet of the mass of Earth is able to be rendered under control.

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Few minutes ago I wrote:



So mass would impose a barrier on Life, just as the Fusion Barrier Principle imposes a barrier on a maximum
breakeven point. And the two would be related.


The relationship is very easy to spot. In that you need a particular size mass to start a smallest star fusion.
And no life could exist in that star. And so the FBP
is related to the smallest size star mass.

What one can say philosophically or spiritually about these ideas is that in the Universe, life shares the
cosmos with nonlife and that nonlife has the upper hand.

So the eternal conflict is not between good and evil, but between massive balls
of stars and small balls of planets with life. And that life never wins over the
massive balls that are stars. Except in the one thing that stars are impossible to accomplish-- nucleosynthesis
of larger atomic number atoms.

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

In sci.physics, Archimedes Plutonium

wrote
on Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:09:32 -0500
:
someone wrote:
(snipped)


Grist for the mill:

Sun mass: 1.9862 * 10^30 kg
Saturn V launch mass: 2.77 * 10^6 kg

In order to be effective 1 kg of poison would have to stop about
10^24 kg of reactants -- and that's assuming our rocket can deliver
all of its launch mass into space, which it can't; the 3rd stage
can hold a maximum of 1.18 * 10^5 kg, of which 1.54 * 10^4 is
the ship itself, presumably.

This is really not the sort of thought-line I intended in the
original post.

Welcome to Usenet. :-)


More to the point: suppose we go backwards in time to
a million years ago with what was then pre-humans and
asked ourselves are these creatures able to alter and
change the planet Earth with their conscious actions?
And the answer would most definitely be that in a
million years of future time that these creatures are
able to alter this planet on a large scale-- mass
extinctions, Global Warming, initiate Ice Ages.

If one has a time machine handy, perhaps. I think I left
my Type 40[*] in another universe, though.


Granted, in a million years of time these prehumans have
not been able to say alter the orbit of Earth, but they
have come to the point where they could defend
from a deadly asteroid collision.

Dunno about that; probably depends on the size of the rock.


So the question becomes as to a million years hence into
the future. Are there some bits and pieces of scientific
knowledge that humanity is able to affect not only the
orbit of Earth but also affect the orbit of say Jupiter.
Or, is there some knowledge of fusion as yet undiscovered
that allows humanity some influence over the Sun itself and
that if a asteroid were to warehouse some salt for say 2 or
3 million years of collecting amoung the various planetary
habitats of humanity which in 3 million years hence would
have colonies throughout the solar system. And that if you
warehouse some salt on an Asteroid and then make it collide
with the Sun.

Right. Now which salt would interfere with the pp or CNO reactions?

Also, it's fairly obvious that we can observe the decrease in a
star's intensity fairly easily ("look, that star's not shining
as brightly"). Surely a spectroscopic analysis would show
what salts are therein...


What I am saying is that Humanity at present has only a tiny
amount of knowledge of how fusion really works and how the Sun
really operates. And that humanity has so many surprizes of
knowledge and understanding of the Sun and fusion that several
of these untapped pieces of knowledge may allow Humanity to have
some big influence upon the Sun and perhaps even Jupiter.

At this point in time, it appears as though Jupiter, the
gas-giants and the Sun are impossible to be influenced in
any big way by the fact of the existence of humanity.
But then we must factor into that the assessement that our
knowledge and understanding of fusion processes is primitive
and we must factor in that the amount of future time ahead for
the human species can be tens of millions or more years into
the future.

It better not be hundreds of millions. The Earth will become
inhospitable in about 500 million to 1 billion year's time.
(The Sun won't bloat up for another 4 billion after that, but
insolation is increasing. We know this from observing
hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of stars, and from
computer simulation of various models.)


I am betting on many surprizes and gaping holes in our
understanding of fusion coupled with the idea that a million
or more years into the future that this idea of putting the
Sun out or lowering its fusion activity is not a impossibility.

Right. So why worry about it *now*? Wait until *then*.


Then again, the Fusion Barrier Principle would say that there is
a limit to what any life can do to a planet given enough mass.
FBP may say that Jupiter, gas-giants and Sun are beyond influence
from life. But that say any planet of the mass of Earth is able
to be rendered under control.

So we drive the Earth into the Sun. Not exactly the brightest
of career moves for a budding megalomaniac who wants to
control the world. :-) (Might be a good threat, though.
Where's a citizen of Krypton when one really needs him? :-) )

[.sigsnip]
[*] Hint hint: British.

--
#191, -- insert random proper dress here
It's still legal to go .sigless.

In article tq68b.16974$QT5.15531@fed1read02, Richard Henry
wrote:

"CC" wrote in message
...
In article , Archimedes Plutonium
wrote:

My recent writings about a Mercury swallowed by the Sun or a gas
giant swallowed by the Sun and causing a decrease in Solar radiation
gave rise to the idea of a fusion-poison. The idea that some element
or perhaps even a compound can poison the fusion process and cool the
Sun is great for a science-fiction plot movie.

And in our modern day and new century of 21st century opened with
terrorism on the mind of most nations.

So, what would be the ultimate in acts of Terrorism.

I believe a movie of this would divulge that answer, keeping in mind
it is science fiction.

But bear with me. Suppose a element or compound is so much of a
fusion poison that a rocket full of the substance when launched and
put into a collision course with the Sun and upon swallowing by the
Sun that this fusion poison would begin to cut the fusion fires of
the Sun.

So we have a movie plot of a group of terrorists demanding something
or other in the future and the threat is that they will launch a
rocket aimed at the Sun and will poison the fusion fires of the Sun.

Considering that the main energy source of the sun is not nuclear
fusion your movie plot diverges from reality just as widely and wildly
as do you with each new post you inflict on the usenet world.

Another defect in my education!

Tell me, have they discovered new coal mines in the sun?

Yes, there a general defect in physics itself as it is taught today.
Since you are follower and not an innovator yourself it is likely that
you believed all the fictions that you were taught.

There's almost a universal consensus that the Sun derives the bulk of
its energy from nuclear fusion processes. Mind you, there's no actual
proof that this is true but nevertheless it is the reigning hypothesis.
People hardly take the time to consider other processes or mechanisms.
When confronted such people even mock the idea that what they think
they know for sure is not likely to be true. You fit the pattern of
people whose arrogance exceeds your grasp.

CC