Hiding in the Solar System.

This is obviously of only theoretical personal interest:

Assume a perfectly malevolent, social and very scientifically advanced carnal
species coexisting with us in the Solar system, but whose intent is to always
stay absolutely hidden from human sight, 24/24, 365/365 and as close as possible
to us. Let's assume that this assumption (staying hidden from human sight and as
close to us) serves some unknown purpose of its evilness against humans.
Something like the Predators, for example.

"social" means in order to survive as species it needs some sort of colony
(which obviously generates some "noise" as a byproduct of its existence), like
we do.

"very scientifically advanced" means advanced enough from our standpoint, but no
nonsense science, like cloaking Romulan/Klingon devices or Predator
"light-bending" thingies.

"carnal species" means the corresponding life form is of similar makeup to us,
subject to gravity, death, aging, etc.

"Human sight" means any observation means, such as radio and optical equipment,
spectrographs and in general any scientific device we use today.

I would be interested in knowing your opinions about optimal locations where
this species could be located.

The allowed range is the entire solar system (Sedna, Eris?), so please take
careful account of the dynamics of the entire system before answering. Locations
which eventually turn and face Earth are not acceptable, as they are surveyable
by human instruments.

In a sense this is a two-objective optimization problem, for objectives:
"Hidden" and "Close".

Many thanks in advance,
--
I.N. Galidakis

Hasn't that idea been beaten to death? What if they want a large pizza from
Tonies
or some adult female human tail on a Saturday night? Do ya think they are
watching
all the porn channels by now? I suppose Elvis from '56 is boring along with
Gilligans Island.

That Capt. Kirk probably really got 'em going and that green blooded,
pointed eared ****! "Goddamn it
Spock, I'm a doctor, not computer!!"

my guess is Saturn...they love those rings.


Assume a perfectly malevolent, social and very scientifically advanced
carnal
species coexisting with us in the Solar system, but whose intent is to
always
stay absolutely hidden from human sight, 24/24, 365/365 and as close as
possible
to us. Let's assume that this assumption (staying hidden from human sight
and as
close to us) serves some unknown purpose of its evilness against humans.
Something like the Predators, for example.

"social" means in order to survive as species it needs some sort of colony
(which obviously generates some "noise" as a byproduct of its existence),
like
we do.

"very scientifically advanced" means advanced enough from our standpoint,
but no
nonsense science, like cloaking Romulan/Klingon devices or Predator
"light-bending" thingies.

"carnal species" means the corresponding life form is of similar makeup to
us,
subject to gravity, death, aging, etc.

"Human sight" means any observation means, such as radio and optical
equipment,
spectrographs and in general any scientific device we use today.

I would be interested in knowing your opinions about optimal locations
where
this species could be located.

The allowed range is the entire solar system (Sedna, Eris?), so please
take
careful account of the dynamics of the entire system before answering.
Locations
which eventually turn and face Earth are not acceptable, as they are
surveyable
by human instruments.

In a sense this is a two-objective optimization problem, for objectives:
"Hidden" and "Close".

Many thanks in advance,
--
I.N. Galidakis

Far side of the moon? That's where I'd live if I were evil.
Marty

Marty wrote:
Far side of the moon? That's where I'd live if I were evil.

Marty, I am impressed!

However, this answer was optimal till July 1969. Prior to the Apollo 11 mission
landing, the far side was surveyed by human eyes when the astronauts entered
into orbit around the moon. Hence the "colony" had to move to another optimal
location.

Marty
--
I.N. Galidakis

I.N. Galidakis wrote:

Marty wrote:

Far side of the moon? That's where I'd live if I were evil.


Marty, I am impressed!

However, this answer was optimal till July 1969. Prior to the Apollo 11 mission
landing, the far side was surveyed by human eyes when the astronauts entered
into orbit around the moon. Hence the "colony" had to move to another optimal
location.


Marty

it just goes to show there are LESS and LESS places to hide. DARK OF THE
MOON, MARS, and various planetary satellites.

josephus

--
I go sailing in the Summer and
look at STARS in the Winter.
"Everybody is igernant, jist on differt subjects"
Will Rogers Jr.
"it aint what you know that gets you in trouble
it is what you know that aint so"
Josh Billings.

Opposite side of the Sun, same obit as Earth.

I'm fairly certain this was a Sci-Fi topic at least once, although I
recall we were supposedly mutually unaware of each other.

"I.N. Galidakis" wrote:
This is obviously of only theoretical personal interest:

Assume a perfectly malevolent, social and very scientifically advanced carnal
species coexisting with us in the Solar system, but whose intent is to always
stay absolutely hidden from human sight, 24/24, 365/365 and as close as possible
to us. Let's assume that this assumption (staying hidden from human sight and as
close to us) serves some unknown purpose of its evilness against humans.
Something like the Predators, for example.
....
=============
- Dale Gombert (SkySea at aol.com)
122.38W, 47.58N, W. Seattle, WA

SkySea wrote:

Opposite side of the Sun, same obit as Earth.

I'm fairly certain this was a Sci-Fi topic at least once, although I
recall we were supposedly mutually unaware of each other.


"I.N. Galidakis" wrote:
This is obviously of only theoretical personal interest:

Assume a perfectly malevolent, social and very scientifically advanced carnal
species coexisting with us in the Solar system, but whose intent is to always
stay absolutely hidden from human sight, 24/24, 365/365 and as close as possible
to us. Let's assume that this assumption (staying hidden from human sight and as
close to us) serves some unknown purpose of its evilness against humans.
Something like the Predators, for example.

...
=============
- Dale Gombert (SkySea at aol.com)
122.38W, 47.58N, W. Seattle, WA

because of dynamics the two planets will have different velocities at
different times of the year. perigee is fast. apogee is slow. so at
those time the planet would peek out and be seen.

josephus

--
I go sailing in the Summer and
look at STARS in the Winter.
"Everybody is igernant, jist on differt subjects"
Will Rogers Jr.
"it aint what you know that gets you in trouble
it is what you know that aint so"
Josh Billings.

josephus wrote:
[snip]

it just goes to show there are LESS and LESS places to hide.

True ;o)

DARK OF
THE MOON, MARS, and various planetary satellites.

Well, it's not as simple as only "the dark side" of mars and various other
satellites or planets. The "dark side" of the moon is not the same as the "far
side" of the moon.

Various planets, satellites and Mars have "dark sides", but eventually these
sides may turn their faces towards Earth. The location has to be *permanently*
hidden from Earth's view.

The "far side" of the moon was an optimal location because the moon is tidally
locked with Earth, so its far side always remains invisible from Earth.

Dale's answer was a good one as well, but I think you are right: It is
impossible to have an object always in a perfectly symmetrical antipodal orbit
to Earth with respect to the Sun, because of the multiple perturbations from the
rest of the planets, which eventually will desynchronize the orbit of anything
on the other side and bring it into view.

josephus
--
I.N. Galidakis

On Sep 22, 12:19 pm, "I.N. Galidakis" wrote:
josephus wrote:

[snip]

it just goes to show there are LESS and LESS places to hide.

True ;o)

DARK OF
THE MOON, MARS, and various planetary satellites.

Well, it's not as simple as only "the dark side" of mars and various other
satellites or planets. The "dark side" of the moon is not the same as the "far
side" of the moon.

Various planets, satellites and Mars have "dark sides", but eventually these
sides may turn their faces towards Earth. The location has to be *permanently*
hidden from Earth's view.

The "far side" of the moon was an optimal location because the moon is tidally
locked with Earth, so its far side always remains invisible from Earth.

Dale's answer was a good one as well, but I think you are right: It is
impossible to have an object always in a perfectly symmetrical antipodal orbit
to Earth with respect to the Sun, because of the multiple perturbations from the
rest of the planets, which eventually will desynchronize the orbit of anything
on the other side and bring it into view.

josephus

--
I.N. Galidakis


The information derived from the orbital orientation change of Uranus
and applied to the Earth,along with the definite affirmation of the
orbital change associated with the natural unequal noon cycle is
crucial for understanding climate and meteorology.-

http://astro.berkeley.edu/~imke/Infr..._2001_2005.jpg

I well know that the much simpler Copernican insight in gauging our
orbital motion through the motions of the other planets has yet to be
affirmed in this forum so it is almost pointless asking 'astrologers
with telescopes' to interpret the images of Uranus a correctly.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ima...2000_tezel.gif

Using images and motions of the other planets to extract details of
our own planet has always been the highest form of astronomy and the
new motion based on orbital orientation change which explains the
unequal noon cycles and the reason for daylight/darkness asymmetry
either side of the Equator is just that.

The intelligent and simple question - Does the Earth keep the same
face to the Sun over the course of an annual orbit ?.

The answer is no,it does not.

Within that answer is an enormous amount of endeavor for many people
and especially in the area of climatology.I am not a beggar looking
for attention and to see the new motion based on orbital orientation
change attached to orbital motion introduced into an arena full of
clowns is with regret whereas the introduction of the Earth's axial
and orbital motions was done in more dignified circumstances.The real
astronomers in the Copernican era knew how dramatic the change was
*,in this era there is nobody good enough to appreciate the emergence
of a large modification to Copernican reasoning.


* http://homepages.wmich.edu/~mcgrew/chain.htm

On 2007-09-22, SkySea wrote:

"I.N. Galidakis" wrote:

Assume a perfectly malevolent, social and very scientifically advanced carnal
species coexisting with us in the Solar system, but whose intent is to always
stay absolutely hidden from human sight, 24/24, 365/365 and as close as possible

Opposite side of the Sun, same obit as Earth.

Impossible - there is already Cruithne orbiting through that region
of space in addition to Earth. If there was anything there Cruithne
would not be able to both catch up with and run away from the Earth
in the manner it does. You may be able to manage one or the other,
but without having done any simulations I suspect that even that
would be unstable.

--
Andrew Smallshaw