From Jeff Findley:
In article ,
says...

snip
JF: "What exactly did Neil Armstrong think of planting the flag? Was it truly one of the defining moments in his life?"

In my own one-on-one discussions with Neil, I never asked him that.

But he has given interviews where he gives a clear impression that he
didn't want his life defined by *anything* he did on Apollo 11.

I'll agree with that. The actual evidence supports the assertion.

He was also a professor at the local university (University of
Cincinnati) as well as living in a smallish town outside Cincinnati
(about 10 miles from where I live). He was an engineer first and
foremost, IMHO.

The Aerospace Engineering building that Purdue built after I left (I
took classes in Grissom Hall) is named after him. He's kind of a legend
at Purdue, being their most famous astronaut/graduate.

I also have very strong connections to Purdue myself, going back several decades. And I had returned for a visit back in 2016. Grissom Hall actually has excellent displays honoring Roger Chaffee along with Gus. A very nice touch. I would have liked to have seen some tribute to Gene Cernan. If the EE Dept did something, I missed it. Several years back, the Stewart Center had an excellent display dedicated to both Armstrong & Cernan, but this was temporary, Oct 3, 2014 - Feb 27, 2015.

As for Armstrong Hall, that building is far more than just named after him. The lobby is like a Neil Armstrong Museum, with a full-sized X-20 and Apollo Command Module hanging from the ceiling. For anyone who has not been there to see it in person, I highly recommend it. (The capsule is actually billed as a replica of "Apollo 1", so presented as a tribute to Grissom & Chaffee as two other Boilermaker Apollo astronauts.)

Many photos of the building show the statue of Neil sitting out front, but by the statue there are also a set of concrete moonboot prints. These clearly communicate that the reason why Purdue remembers him is because of his First Steps. His statue is encircled with his First Words.

Maybe in his own mind "he was an engineer first and foremost". But in just about everyone else's mind, no one remembers him for that. He is remembered as a test pilot and an astronaut.

....and that leads to a little known fact about NAA. He did not attend any formal test pilot school until *after* he left NASA. Long after Apollo 11.

If Damien Chazelle accurately documents this in his movie, I will be utterly shocked. Key facts about Neil Armstrong don't fit the standard narrative of Neil Armstrong. It was not until the 1970s that NAA attended test pilot school, and this was NTPS in Mojave, not Edwards AFB. And his classmate there was Ellison Onizuka (who was 16 years younger than him).

And it will also be very interesting to see how Chazelle relates *how* Armstrong got to be first. I see Slayton's "luck of the draw" mantra to be utterly bogus. If Chazelle presents an accurate story, he will show how Armstrong had gotten the coveted assignment of being the CB rep for the LLRV/TV program way back in 1964, roughly four years prior to the announcement of Armstrong's assignment as Apollo 8 backup CDR, let alone his subsequent assignment as A11 CDR.

Can historical accuracy be expected from the movie First Man? I will remain open to being surprised in the case that it is.

snip
The only reason the world cares is because he was the First Man. Again:

- The First Man to land,
- The First Man to step, and
- The First Man to plant.

For anyone who wants hard data to back this up, I recommend taking a poll.
Ask people around the globe: "What are the top 3 things that Neil
Armstrong is remembered for?"

Many, if not most, will say "Neil who?" Then you explain who he was. And
that's when people will point to these three things he did.

If Neil were to present his own Top 3 list, it's quite possible that *none*
of those events would make it. Look at Thomas Jefferson. On his tombstone
he had his Top 3 listed. And you know what did NOT make his list?
President of the United States.

Jefferson founded the University of Virginia. Does anyone care about
that? He did.


I'm glad you got to the crux of the issue. You, and a lot of other
people (mostly Americans), have gotten their nationalistic knickers in a
knot because the biopic movie about Neil Armstrong didn't show one scene
that you all consider to be essential (because 'Murica?).

I initiated this thread after waiting more than a week after it hit the headlines, posting here with the expressed purpose of pointing out that the movie could have depicted the factual event of the flag being BLOWN DOWN during blastoff from the lunar surface, and you conclude that what is motivating my comments is Murca nationalism? Hardly the first time that my comments here have been misconstrued. That would probably be somewhere in the 3-to-4 digit range of how many times that has happened to me here.

It is the exact opposite for someone to promote movie depiction of the US flag being blown down. That event was in no way, shape or form patriotic or nationalistic. It is an event that can be seen as being symbolic of American decline or even ruin.

I did not raise this topic out of any desire to discuss the merits of including or not including the flag planting. I have very clearly stated that I don't see that to be a topic worthy of debate. It is such a central fact to the Apollo 11 mission, and to the most important aspects of Neil Armstrong's life, that I've expressed in no uncertain terms that this is a non-starter.

Had the UN flag been raised that day, or even if it had been a Nazi swastika flag, my point would remain unchanged. The event of raising that flag would be in the Top 3 things that NAA accomplished in his life, from the historical perspective.

Look, everyone on the whole damn planet who accepts the fact that the
moon landings were real also know that it was the Americans who
accomplished that feat. They also know it's not been repeated by any
other nation in the nearly 50 years that followed.

Not putting the flag planting scene in the movie was a choice made by
the writers, producers, and etc. in an attempt to focus on the man Neil
Armstrong. Apparently, we're going to have to agree to disagree on
whether including that scene was essential. It is, after all, a matter
of opinion. There is no hard and fast set of rules for movie making.
Nor should there be. Freedom of expression is a thing, even for movie
producers.

The scene was omitted out of desire to focus on NAA as a person? Neil was the one who did the flag planting. That scene serves to emphasize his accomplishments as a person. I don't see how, in any way, it would detract from telling his life's story.

Thanks for the discussion. I'm pretty sure we're done here.

Thank you too.

Even if you are finished with sharing your own views, it is clear to me that the story of Neil Alden Armstrong is FAR from being told completely. A thorough movie about his life would have an audience leaving the theater with a solid understanding of how he got to become the first person to do what he did.

I just now looked up the full cast from the movie:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1213641...=tt_cl_sm#cast

It does not list any credit for anyone portraying Paul Bikle. In seeing that, I now have *zero* expectation that we're going to be given a complete story on Armstrong's life and how he got to do what he did. Because his relationship with FRC Director Paul Bikle was CENTRAL to the choice assignments Armstrong got.

Chazelle either did not do his research, or he just decided to do a fluff piece.

THIS is the relationship that is KEY to understanding Neil Armstrong's superlative life accomplishments:
https://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Ph.../E66-16107.jpg
(NAA w/Paul Bikle)

His close friendship with Paul Bikle was key to him becoming an X-15 pilot (among other choice assignments during his time at Edwards under Bikle), and it was key to him getting assigned as astronaut lead for the LLRV/TV program, and his subsequent expertise on the LLRV/TV program was key to him getting assigned as Commander for the first lunar landing mission.

It would be excellent if someone some day were to make a movie that told NAA's story in a complete way.

~ CT