On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 7:16:35 AM UTC+13, Fred J. McCall wrote:
JF Mezei wrote:

On 2016-10-01 20:29, Alain Fournier wrote:

It isn't easier for a person to be functional after ~3-4 months enclosed
with 5 others to be functional than for the same person to be functional
after the trip with 100 others.


Think space for the "gym". You're not going to be able to keep 100
people fit with just one threadmill and one stationary bike. And you
can't say 24 persons can use the threamill 1 hour each day, so you only
need 4 threadmills because people don't want to exercise just before
they go to bed (otherwise you won't sleep). And since mechanical
exercise devices break down, you also need to have extra machines for
when one breks down until it is repaired.

100 people exercising every day also produces much more CO2, and
increases water requirements (which also increases need for water
reclamation capacity from sweat that has evaporated into cabin air).


These ships are BIG. Space shouldn't be a problem and you need all
that stuff anyway.

Especially if you use the 'wet' station concept of inhabiting the empty propellant tanks during the journey.


So unless you do like in Avatar and put everyone into a tube where they
fall asleep for months (and none of their body functions/muscles
weaken), then you are likely to need for more space and ECLSS capacity
than for a short suborbital trip from new York to Sdyney with 100 pax.


Well, of course, Captain Obvious. Nobody is talking about people
spending 100 days sitting in an airline seat here. And nobody but
Mook thinks 'hibernation' is a viable approach.

Yeah, me and NASA ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFVZ76SOg6Y

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/f...PhI_Torpor.pdf

http://www.sei.aero/eng/papers/uploa...2010162015.pdf

and since Musk was at the 2015 IAF conference in Israel, he likely was referring to this 100 person transfer vehicle in his 2016 announcement.

Just guessing.

Whom do you expect to be on the cutting edge? People who post to this site? Or people who attend every IAF conference and sometimes give talks? (like me and Musk)




The other aspect: once you start to add enough gear to support 100
people for months including the gym, toilets etc, do you really want to
bring all that down to mars and then back up ? Might make sense to have
a lot fo the stuff put in orbit at Mars so you don't have to brakme it
down and accelerate it back up (depending on its mass).

A long duration garment with built in devices to keep it and its wearer clean, and can double as a spacesuit with the right attachments, and can act as a 'man multiplier' and stasis chamber (since its control of gases that bring about stasis using hydrogen sulphide according to Mark Roth's research) can also stimulate muscle activity electronically. That is, with a stereoscopic display inside a heads up display helmet, that is slaved to the motion of your eyes and head - and a fabric with optical fibres and accelerometers woven in to sense precise body motion - one can create a virtual reality simulation of any exercise required in any environment desired.


But now you've got the problem of connecting all that stuff with a
little narrow airlock/docking tunnel. You can build more robustly if
you make it all one piece.

The same low mass low complexity approach that makes it a joy to travel for months in space, also make it a joy to survive on the surface of Mars.

Survey teams, which will pre-date settlers and more casual tourists, will likely have their ships stay on orbit near Diemos or Phobos, and use resources there to refuel their ship for return. Meanwhile, early adopters will use rocket belt technology to visit as many spots on Mars as they can and follow procedures to surveil them for possible settlements - being directed by earlier orbital surveys and using a network of satellites deployed by the arriving spacecraft.

Self-replicating machine systems that mass about 285 kg - are deployed that build structures from the locally found resources form the basis of up to 1400 cities spaced around Mars.

Each 2 sq km city-state is self-contained and can support up to 35,000 persons initially and grow to 105,000 each - covering 100 sq km. The 285 kg collection - called UTILITY FOG - is capable of doubling in mass in a month's time. So, in the 25 months from one synodic period - a small seed planted can grow to 100s of tons per person for a 35,000 person city.

At 35,000 and 2 sq km we have an engineered space the size of Monaco. At 105,000 people across 100 sq km we have something the size of the US Virgin Islands for each city state. So, total area ranges from 2800 sq km to 140,000 sq km. Compare this to 144.9 million sq km for the entire planet.

At normal rates of population growth, populations grow to 3x their starting number in 100 years. Filling 28 cities per synodic period it takes a century to populate all cities.

The first three synodic cycles will have early adopters visit the red planet and survey sites for their potential as future city states. Those who help identify and develop these regions, will name streets and landmarks, and be able to sell on developments to those who settle later. All information is brought back to Earth as part of a large database, and people bid for spots. Those who actually end up travelling to the red planet during a later epoch will take training, and design their Mars compound and businesses on line testing it first in a virtual setting - as the utility fog shapes the features on Mars, and makes use of materials sent ahead of the settlers. The settlers then arrive to take possession of their Mars compound.




It's not as if you have to unload the ship in 15 minutes. I don't see
a problem here.


How big/bulky would the spacesuits need to be for each passenger?


Why does each passenger need one?

They're useful on Mars, and if designed, layers can be worn in a vareity of ways to minimise other hardware. A mechanical counter pressure suit that has active skin to maintain pressure, can also provide counter force in response to motion to create a sensation of interacting with the environment. Such a system could replace a treadmill or exercise equipment. A smart cloth that kept itself and its wearer clean and fresh, could dispense with toilets baths and showers as well as laundries - while improving health. A suit that maintain temperature and air quality would minimise the need for environmental systems throughout the ship. In a pinch, they could be used as a life boat - traversing from a damaged ship to a functioning one. Going outdoors during transit to look at the stars would also be an exciting activity. According to Apollo 17 astronaut Ron Evans, this could be more exciting than surface EVAs ever could be.


Shuttle EVA? Sokol?n (not just for the trip, but also to live on Mars.
You,.ll need one to go out to walk the dog every day :-)


A soft suit like those that were worn by SR-71 pilots should be
sufficient. You don't need a pressure suit unless your job involves
going outside. Habitat and vehicles would probably be pressurized.



And how much autonomy would a suit have to have at time of landing?
(what if it lands off target, 2 hours walking distance from base, and
suits only have 1 hour autonomy ?)


If you're landing 2 miles off target you've got bigger problems than
not enough air. That would mean you can't reliably put down a colony
at all, since your cargo and settlers would be scattered all over.

If you're worried about 'one off' errors, in that case they just stay
with the ship until someone sends a bus for them.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

First travellers will likely stay on orbit and resupply from Diemos or Phobos for return. They will also use rocket belt technology to visit multiple sites on the surface, and ones deemed the most interesting and viable for further development, will be sent one of 1400 'utility fog seeds' a 285 kg collection of solar powered micro-robots that will grow into a city for 35,000 covering 2 sq km (the size of Monaco) in one synodic period - and over the course of the next 100 years grow to cover 100 sq km and support 105,000 people.

Cities will be opened for settlement, and promoted broadly throughout Earth.. As each fills, other will be opened - up to 14 per synodic period - and trade will take place for positions between settlers. The early 'surveyors' will be the prime beneficiaries and promoters of 'their' sites. Later adopters will see their payment not only result in a one way trip to Mars - but also ownership of a self sustaining compound on Mars serviced by AI controlled utility fog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZNzz4SaTYk

A new life awaits you in the off world colonies.
A chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure.