"Eunometic" wrote in message
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On Jul 25, 2:28 am, Dan wrote:
Eunometic wrote:

snip

Finally of course we have the allegation that the swiss knew that
there were concentration camps that were death camps in which
purposefull execution happened. The allegation is absurd. No one
knew this least of all the Swiss.

Through communications intercepts, concentration camp escapee
reports. photo reconnaissance and other sources the Allies were fully
aware the Holocaust was in progress. They may not have known the scope,
this is subject to debate, but they knew. Did the Swiss know? I don't
know. I do know the entire world, including the U.S., knew of the camps,
Nazi treatment of communists and Jews and the like. Newspapers in the
U.S. and U.K. had reported on the subject.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

First of all Dan let me say this is a sad topic. I can only imagine
how it makes you feel. I can only say I've found myself taking some
uncomfortable and surprising positions on these newsgroups.

You mean like your attempts to make people like Zundel appear
the victim?

As far as I can tell no source claims there was a death camp till at
least mid or late 1942. There were concentration camps full of not
only Jews but political opponents (some who were released), partisans,
communists and Christians etc.

The as far as I can tell means zero research has been done on the subject.
It is easy to look up the names of the death camps and check their start
dates, this has been mentioned before

Belzec in March 1942.
Majdeanek in April 1942
Sobibor May 1942
Treblinka July 1942

That Jews were singled out, discriminated against and dispossesed is
of no doubt.

Along with several groups.

However look at the context of the times.

In other words something must be done to ease the Nazi crimes.

The Bolsheviks led the way
in this in scale and the allies had their own German, Italian and
Japanese internees.

So how many of the other people were running extermination
campaigns? How about having millions of PoWs die?

Compounding this was that 80% of German Jews
survived, they simply left before things got too serious while some
that stayed, amazingly, continued to remain free.

Of course the majority still in Germany in September 1939 did not
survive. Why not mention the survival rates of American Jews,
after all Hitler could not get to most of them just like he could not
get to most of the ex German Jews.

As to remain free try and understand the Nazi definition of Jewish
was not the normal one, made it hard to find all the Nazi defined
Jews.

The cover story
Germans were told was that they were being sent for re-settlement in
the east initially this may even have been the plan.

So you can provide the evidence.

There was
certainly a plant to place Jews in their own homeland in Madagascar
and many Nazis let alone swiss and germans surely believed this
themselves.

I like this, the Madagascar "plan" was hot air.

When the British decided they wanted to take South Africa as one of
their colonies they started the propaganda campaigns normal associated
with this sort of action.

Now we need to jump to another time and place, rather than dealing
with the Nazis, we try and find other people doing crimes.

Try reading more about the Boer war, like the way the Boers treated
the Africans (during the war the policy was to usually shoot Africans
taken captive), the way they kept denying newcomers rights in order to
keep control and the fact they had control of domestic affairs and the
British foreign affairs before the war. And of course the gold mines.
Imperialism all round, the peace treaty deprived the Africans of the
vote, the Boers insisted on this clause.

After burning the Boer farms the women and
children were placed in concentration camps where over 50% died from
the effects of inadequate food and sanitation shelter and the general
effects of not being in control of ones circumstances. Over half of
those were children. This, I think, is more or less what happened in
the initial to middle phases of the concentration camp system.
Remember this is the British acting on orders from Lord Kitchener.

The maths are simple, the camps did not have proper sanitation,
in October 1901 there were over 145,000 people in them and in
that month around 3,900 died. By February 1902 the death rate
was 1/6 of that, shortly after the death rate was "below Glasgow".
Lots of the victims were children to measles as well as the diseases
that killed the adults. Note the what happened when the condition
of the camps was made known. Oh yes, it was not 50% dead.

Then the Nazis, with this sort of knowledge still went ahead and
created the conditions in the camps.

After Stalingrad and after the mess got worse and worse and the whole
thing ended up bigger than they conceived of the whole slippery slope
to the abyss began.

No actually after Stalingrad the killing program began to be
questioned as the war economy needed the workers, hence the
dedicated killing camps were eventually shut down and slave
labour, working people to death employed more.

Yet at all times there was a plausible explanation. The Zyklon-B
insecticide was used in the tons in specially designed fumigation
cupboard to delouse clothes. The portable cupboards were widely
advertised and used. After the war the allies doused people in DDT to
save lives.

I presume this is the plausible explanation for the gas shipments,
not telling people the irritant normally put in the mixture to warn
people was removed for the SS orders.

The captain of the bismark. lindemann was of Jewish background while
Admiral Lutjens (presented as a nazi fanatic in sink the bismark) was
actually someone who wrote a stern letter of protest after
krystalnacht. You could always find the Nazi system being reasonably
tollerant at times.

You know Eunometic really needs to go live in North Korea or
somewhere else if this is really going to be the standard of
evidence being presented. It too can be reasonably tolerant
at times, there must be someone affected in a positive way.

What of those decrypts. The massive deaths in the camp system were
mentioned only once (I think in late 43 or 1944) and very briefly in
decrypts of ultra or enigma yet that source had to be protected with
plausible second sources.

Note we are now in a sideline, that has nothing to do with the
reality of the killing program but with how the allies found out.

By the way check out the intercepts of the killing units making
their reports from the USSR.

In the book "Delusions of Intelligence"
R.A. Ratcliff claims that strategic reconnaissance flights were flown
and aircraft developed simply to provide cover for ultra.

And this has what relevance?

In order to
decrypt enigma machines the allies needed to capture a machine with
its rotors, then use the brute force method of an electronic try all
simulation of the machine to work out the rotor setting for the day.

The allies did not need a machine, the Germans knew they would
have been lost at a steady rate.

And try and understand it was more than Brute force to crack
the daily settings.

When the Germans introduced a new rotor wheel Belechely park was able
to work out the wirings of the new rotor over a few weeks because the
same message went out via the old rotors to some destinations and they
they were able to work out the wirings of the new rotor from the fact
that they had a known message. Had the Germans introduced more new
rotors while withdrawing the old ones simultaneously the whole system
would have broken.

I note just after saying the allies needed a machine they now can
work it out without capturing it.

In my opinion 'shamming' may have been the best way to stop the
killing, yet what reaction could that have provoked?

Quite simple, the Nazis were not going to be stopped. Hitler was
not into shaming.

I think even Nazis would have found the whole thing repugnant. They
were into it because the Nazis got things done, made them feel good
and initially at least took care of people and communities.

Yes folks, the majority of the Nazi party were not Nazis. And they
would not have done it, no evidence of course, just a belief. Does
the same generous definition apply to the communists? Other
radical organisations? etc.

In the end the citizens of Switzerland of all creeds and religions
were safe.

This is supposed to be some sort of excuse? Germany, Italy, Holland,
Belgium, Luxembourg, Britain, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Latvia,
Lithuania, Estonia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Greece.

Seen what happened to their citizens when the Nazis could control
their territory.

Oh yes. Note the killing of some US PoWs for being Jewish.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.