On Feb 25, 9:39 am, john190209 wrote:
On Feb 24, 8:00 pm, wrote:
On Feb 23, 10:06 pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
wrote:
xxein: You may be overlooking a serious problem. I was thinking of
the different galaxial types and began wondering if age is a major
factor. Elliptical becomes more disk-like, spiral, bar and then to
ring.
But more interesting is how the gasses and stars revolve at the top or
bottom of the (early?) elliptical ones. Definitely not any
classically described revolution.
So a thought came to me (inspired by your bars). What guides these N
and S stars to form and retract toward the hub and/or rotational disk
(flatten out)?
I know there are a lot of parameters to form galaxies in the first
place, such as the local richness of matter and how it can deviate
from the overall universal expansion radial and a few other things.
But (back to your bars), these top and bottom (N and S) stars and
gasses must feel the presence of each other's position and motion in
such a spherical primordial stage of a galactic formation.
Imperfections give the galaxy a starting rotational velocity and the
rest is the evolutionary history.
Sounds a little too easy. I know. But it all ties into the halo
effect. Halo stars are the oldest associated with any galaxy. They
simply existed in an imperfect group caused also by imperfection in
the distribution of primordial matter. By their position and gravity
they can form discriminant gravitational groups over time. They can
cause an internal gravitational lensing effect. It depends on the
difference in scales between available matter and where they formed.
This difference need only tip a delicate balance. Energy seeks an
equilibrium. It almost never achieves this because of motion. Within
a raggedy group of halo stars, there is originally made a sort of
vacuum deficient of energy because the halo's aggregate gravity was
pulling the energy out. As the halos grew with energy, they shrank
toward each other and pulled more energy in from the outside. Since
they hardly constitute a continuous spherical shell, they continuously
infused their rough interior with more and more non-captured/consumed
energy. So the energy (matter) began to become more dense in the
interior and a galaxy could eventually form by being so entrapped.
Sound better? I don't know if there are halo stars associated with
every galaxy formation. Maybe they got swept into the galaxy itself
and are hard to find or got assimilated to the core/BH during the
evolution of the galaxy. Beats me.
But if halo stars are associated with galaxy formation, they will
appear to remain outside of them in earlier stages of a galaxy's life.
Back to the revolution of stars and an early galactic morphology, if
you simply consider any radian as a 'bar', the diffuse gravitational
effects are very important since the galaxy is building a rotational
momentum.
An additional factor (just considered) is that it is at the galactic
level in cosmology the universal expansion effects first appear. This
prompts me to think of what happens to a galaxy that has insufficient
energy in it's environment to run itself. When a star has to fall
back into itself, it can mean one of three things (the three bears
tale). It has grown to big and too fast for it's britches because of
rich environment (Super-nova type), it becomes a BH because it
maintains a not-so-large feeding schedule or it collapses of
starvation (nova). Neither of these may necessarily be really true,
but it got me to thinking what primordial galaxies would do if cut off
from outside energy. Would they eventually collapse into their
centers and give us quasars? Maybe they met with other universes and
got too hot to handle like a super-fed galaxy. Would we see the same
galaxy as a quasar if we were viewing it from the other universe(s)?
Never mind.
Now maybe with my reply and your 'bar' effect you can show how the
Pioneer anomaly works.
RKS:
On the Halos, I thought I posted a news message on Halos to my Physical
Sciences group but I can't seem to find it. But this paper may be of
interest:
Two stellar components in the halo of the Milky Way
Abstract
The halo of the Milky Way provides unique elemental abundance and kinematic
information on the first objects to form in the Universe, and this
information can be used to tightly constrain models of galaxy formation and
evolution. Although the halo was once considered a single component,
evidence for its dichotomy has slowly emerged in recent years from
inspection of small samples of halo objects. Here we show that the halo is
indeed clearly divisible into two broadly overlapping structural
components-an inner and an outer halo-that exhibit different spatial density
profiles, stellar orbits and stellar metallicities (abundances of elements
heavier than helium). The inner halo has a modest net prograde rotation,
whereas the outer halo exhibits a net retrograde rotation and a peak
metallicity one-third that of the inner halo. These properties indicate that
the individual halo components probably formed in fundamentally different
ways, through successive dissipational (inner) and dissipationless (outer)
mergers and tidal disruption of proto-Galactic clumps.
Source: Naturehttp://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v450/n7172/abs/nature06460.html
Any search for 'Halo' and one gets numerous hits for 'dark matter halos'...
And when I read up on the unexpected galaxy rotational speeds they always
specify spiral galaxies ~ is the rotational speed of non-spiral galaxies as
expected? When a galaxy goes from spiral to bar to ring does the motion
become more Copernican?
Robert
xxein: Yes. Any inner halo is an after-effect. It will have more
metal and be pro-grade influenced through the interior gasses over
time. The net retrograde of the outer is simply it's primordial
motion and can foster an anti-motion of the interior because of an
attempt of the central gasses to find the equilibrium.
Think about this (even if I did not envision inner halo stars). The
outer halo stars originally have a motion that is almost non discrete
wrt to each other. But some oddball chaos caused them to form from a
differential pressure or collisions. Without knowing the patten of
this genesis, we can't contemplate how they move wrt one another. But
they do form a local region. We would be stupid to say the after
effects would form a square, wouldn't we? Maybe some weird shape as
time went along, but what is the aftermath? It tends to become
spherical.
Now it is an energy sink and when it exhausts the local interior
energy, all that is left is the exterior. Energy is drawn in en mass
(!) and with its own equilibrium function to cope with. If the outer
halo stars have any primordial motion at all, the incoming energy will
be bent by the gravity of each of the outer halo stars. As said, It
is not a continuous boundary. The influx meets a moving gravitational
object. Where does the non-captured energy go?
As it enters he interior of this gravitational circumstance of halo
stars, any movement of the stars themselves can produce an unequal
bending of the energy stream that passed through.
The first thing that happens is that the energy will try to seek an
equilibrium after the gravitational bending. It will tend to swirl
because there is a minimal pressure there that it is filling up at
this point in time. It achieves it's own local rotation. This can
provide for any inner halo stars. But what of the rotation? As the
outer halo star moves and energy passes by it, it provides for a
moving hollow. Which energy do you think will arrive there first?
That is what will control the interior rotation and it will be
opposite.
That sets up the rest of the net interior rotation even before the
inner halo stars can be formed. But they will form first, after the
outers. This is because the rotation has a gravitational center that
holds it together in the first place. Such large swirls dwarf the the
overflow of their extent.
The specific movement of the outers produces the counter rotation of
its first product (the inners). The net rotation of the interior will
be opposite that of the outer halo stars.
Or- a better explanation and much more sensible:
There are stars in a roughly spherical placement around each
galaxy because the edges of the disc used
to be there, and will be there again.
The disc precesses as well as spins ( the precession
is twice that of the spin)- this sweeps the disc through a
spherical volume as it spins and creates the halo.
Galaxies are spheres over the long run just as
atoms are discs in the short run.
Observe this spinning disc precessing at 2 and rotating at 1:
every time the disc precesses 180 degrees it sweeps out
a spherical volume and the next pass through this same
volume it is spinning the *opposite direction*.
http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/standingwave.GIF
THIS is why successive layers of SPHERICALLY-PLACED halo stars
have opposite rotational motion!!!!!
john
Galaxy Model for the Atom
http://users.accesscomm.ca/john