Ray Vingnutte wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:27:31 -0500
nightbat wrote:



Ray Vingnutte wrote:
As I said earlier, I and people like Bostrom are not talking about or
referring to the sort of things we call or know as computers that we
have today. When it comes to being programmed well, if you go back to
the earliest life forms that evolved on earth they were indeed like
that, even today is a single celled organism a thinking conscious
entity or is it simply following a set of rules?, can it make what it
thinks are self aware decisions.
It is suggested we evolved from that, so how can you or anyone be sure
that we are not behaving in a similar fashion but on a larger scale.


nightbat wrote

Ha, ha, did you yourself decide Ray, and not wait into the
potentially human programed and generated alternate molded far future,
to answer these posts or any others or was that just preprogrammed in
your mental thinking or DNA as a given? The present reality and future
belongs to the brave willing to face it, not sci fi it and think it's
just a non free will put up job in some designers mind. Living reality
versus man made one is after all states of reality one real and the
other man made artificial. Truth in labeling, anchoring systems, will
help as man learns to create and further extend his own altered man made
realities.

Ray
You are basing that whole argument on the reality that we call reality
or rather the reality that fits nicely with your observation of the
environment around you. You then call that the true reality.

The problem you now face Nightbat is that the odds against you being
correct are staggeringly set against you.

nightbat

First there are many many real realities, for instance real
science based, political, social, economic, religious, military, etc.
versus man made virtual or artificial ones etc. Living cosmic reality,
physically and quantum energy based is yet to be fully comprehended.
Anyone who states they presently know the full universe picture is a sci
fi theorist, is substance influenced, or under some personal cloud of
great illusion. The best that brilliant scientist's and researchers can
do is look out onto this immense universe and ponder. Theoretically
apply what they and co peers have studied and learned and comparative
mutually observe to what presents before them.


Ray
If we cannot be sure what is real and what is not real on a quantum
level and we cannot, no matter how much you dislike that, it is true,
then how sure can you be that on a macro level the universe is not
just the same, you cannot be 100 percent sure. People like Deutsch
and many others would argue that when you are faced with a choice
lets say at a road junction, do you turn left or right?, they would
argue it doesn't really matter because you will do both no matter which
way you think you have chosen you will do both. Does that sound as
though you have free will? and which is the real reality?, you turning
left or you turning right?. That is what apparently happens on a quantum
level, so how sure can you be it does not happen on a macro level, in
short you cannot.

nightbat

Because the quantum states are microscopic in nature but we
detect and know they are there due to their effects on the macro one.
When a human is presented with a choice he does have free will, and that
is the difference, and they or you and I may travel down one road or
another by choice and never come through that same road again. Lower
species and degree intelligent forms follow their nature evolved
instincts, not higher evolved intelligence and free will based ones. It
is stimulus for the most part stemming and governed by environment,
overcoming limitations, or adaptive positive negative coping strategies.


Ray
I can only say it for a third time, no one is saying that the computers
of today are real thinking machines.

nightbat

Good, for a returned third time at least you admittedly
understand the difference and clarification will remain true for the
future, because what is man man is not nature or quantum made. Affecting
yes, as all quantum effects can be detected but not ever substituted one
for the other.


Ray
For the fourth time no one is saying that the computers of today are
the true reality or are thinking for themselves.

nightbat

For the fourth time Ray, back at you, and keep repeating if
necessary until it finally registers that all man made artificial
thinking machines are not real thinking for themselves or ever can be
because they are man made only programed machines.

Ray
For the fith time......oh bugger, I will just take solace in the
sure knowledge that the odds are against you Nightbat. Take care, especially
if you are anywhere near a hurrican!.

nightbat

The universe for the fifth return time is governed by reality of
eternal energy in a disturbed field state. Earth based hurricanes are
governed by that reflected disturbed chaotic momentum without set
determined uniform thinking possibility unlike that of a human's. A
hurricane's path is unpredictable due to it's immense built-up power and
cross applicable environment effecting forces, all non free will
derivative. It can appear to have a mind of its own because of human non
full understanding of the multi collective forces acting on a single
presented extreme vortex wind blown entity. Let it go Ray, you or our
collective and even best dreamed up sci fi imagined future reality can
never supersede one true Earth based or entire Nature's real one. And
Just one altering real cosmic effecting event can make sure of that.
Enjoy your present really real reality for what it is, for it's unique
and historically species time line dimensionally limited.


the nightbat