"OG" wrote in message ...
"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message Mr. State's
reasoning could be called a thought experiment.

OG said
But Mr State is claiming that the dwarf stars seen 8GY ago appear to be
13GY
old - even though we can't see them.

Marcel wrote
They don't appear to be 13 GY old. Mr. State claimed that the remote
galaxy
looks like our galaxy, whose dwarf stars are known to be 13 GY old.
A very thin premise:- "it looks like our galaxy so it MUST be the same age
as ours"

Mr. State's thesis is that the clusters in all spiral galaxies comparable
to
our own galaxy have the same age as the clusters of our galaxy, i.e. 13
GY.
If the light emitted by such a spiral galaxy took 8 GY to reach us, he
considers
that to-day, the remote galaxy should be 21 GY old, thus older than the
universe of the BBT.

Let us suppose that Mr Steady is right. In this case he has an interesting
cosmology.
Our Spiral Galaxy is 13GY old (and no older)
Spiral Galaxies 1 Giga-light years away are 13+1 GY old (and no older)
Spiral Galaxies 2 Giga-light years away are 13+2 GY old (and no older)
Spiral Galaxies 3 Giga-light years away are 13+3 GY old (and no older)
Spiral Galaxies 8 Giga-light years away are 13 +8 GY old (and no older)
etc etc
I keep saying "and no older" because he has already asserted (or inferred)
that all Spiral galaxies looking like ours must be 13GY old.
So he sees the Universe getting progressively older the further from us he
looks. So much for the Universe being uniform in time and space - which I
always understod to be a basic tenet of "Steady State" cosmologies.


You are right, Mr. Steady State inferred that spirals *looking like ours*
on their photo are to-day 13 GY + x GY (x = their distance) old.
He considered that such galaxies, if x = for instance 8 GY, should be older
than the universe of the BBT.
Of course, other spirals can be younger or older.

The BB cosmology is even more interesting, according to the NASA press
release of April 24, 2002:

"Globular clusters are the first pioneer settlers of the Milky Way.
Many coalesced to build the hub of our galaxy and formed billions
of years before the appearance of the Milky Way's magnificent pinwheel
disk (as further confirmed by Richer's observations)."

How many billions of years, we can only guess.

Let's say that the clusters formed x GY before the appearance of the
disk of our galaxy. Also according to NASA, the universe is now 13.7 GY old,
and its age at decoupling was about 0.4 GY old, implying that our
galaxy cannot be older that about 13.3 GY.
Hence, if spiral galaxies can be observed at a distance of 8 G light-years,
they should be only 13.3 - 8 = 5.3 GY old on their photo.
If their clusters formed for instance x = 5 GY before their appearance,
one should conclude that those remote spirals didn't need more than .3 GY
to form their "magnificent pinwheel disk" !


That said, I now withdraw from the debate (reserving the right to re-enter
at a later date)

Owen

Marcel Luttgens