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Old September 9th 03, 03:47 AM
Earl Colby Pottinger
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Default Cheap, easy to handle fuels/oxidizers

"spacr" :

Dear John,


Sorry,
I'm not a teacher...


That is very self centered of you. First you make claims about how dangerous
peroxide is, but you don't want to back your claims with checkable facts or
help avoid pitfalls.

You are going to have to go down the learning curve on your own.


Well, if you ever read John's site it is clear he already has done a lot of
testing before hand, without more information about you I think it is
possible that he knows more about peroxide than you do. However John instead
of acting like a know-it-all is still willing to learn from anyone who has
useful information to teach him.

The fact that FMC was refusing to sell you H2O2 because you failed
to grasp even the fundamentals of the safe handling procedures for
H2O2 should have been a clue to you however.


No, it is just proof that it is too easy to sue someone who has the slightest
connection to an accident. FMC is not worried about John blowing himself, it
is worried that if there is an accident with a craft that John designed,
fueled up, and flew, that they would be sued also just because they supplied
the fuel.

Now your mixing H2O2 with hydrocarbons and you think having some H2O in the
mix is going to make every thing OK?


50% and greater water is not just a little. If 50% was so dangerous it would
not be sold over the counter. Notice John has no problem getting 50%
peroxide, it is getting rocket grade purity that FMC gives him a hassle.
Also he has already tested it for shock and has not gotten it to explode. I
really suggest you read his site more carefully.

Here is a freebie: in the 1960's the Air Force did a study on H2O2
decomposition to see why the 98%H2O2 that they had stored in drums
for long term stability testing were still slowly decomposing. What
they found was that water is actually a low grade catalyst for H2O2.


Do you have a URL for that? That infact does not match the Russian
experience with long term storage. Unless you think 1% loss per year is
important which again is silly because if you had read John's site carefully
you would see that he uses up the peroxide within weeks if not just days of
recieving a shipment.

Check out:
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/H2O2CONF/mjeff.htm
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/H2O2CONF/afrolov.htm

They found that there was however a stable form of water which
didn't act as a catalyst with H2O2, of course it's even more epensive than
H2O2 but the non reactive form of water is Heavy Water. I'll leave it as a
study exercise for you to track down the original research and find out why
Heavy Water is non catalytic.


Why us? You made the claim, and it is not in any peroxide paper I looked at.
Everything I have read says the cleaner the tanks and the higher the purity
of the peroxide the lower the decomposition. Keeping decomposition below 1%
per year is simple to do, and 1% per year does not matter if you are going to
use it within a few days.

Lastly, here is a puzzle for you: Why is "1948 angstroms" your potential
best friend/worst enemy?


Meaningless if you are refering to light decomposing peroxide. John like
most people working on peroxide rockets store it in Stainless Steel or
Aluminium tanks - no light.

Check out the bottom of:
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/properties/radiation.html

What make you think you are the only one to study peroxide? Atleast supply
some pointers to your claims, otherwise they are just hot air.

Earl Colby Pottinger

PS: A quick search on your name found hits on my own website's textbase.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/messages/M1002.HTML
http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/messages/M1126.HTML
http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/M...l_01_1999.html search for Jay.

I believe your's is the plant that blew up. Just because you had problems
does not automaticly mean everyone else will. Remember, John does test a lot
before doing anything.

As Always,

Jay Troetschel

"John Carmack" wrote in message
om...
"spacr" wrote in message

news:%PF4b.241388$cF.77683@rwcrnsc53...
The problem with H2O2 is that there isn't anyone currently working
with the stuff who has even the smallest clue what they are doing.
John Carmack and his people could save them selves a world of hurt
that they are setting them selves up for if only they would sit
their asses down and review the literature. John, your going to get
someone killed with your ignorance.

..


Jay Troetschel


If you are going to post something inflamatory like that, it would be
a reasonable courtesy to actually provide some specifics about the
"literature" that is going to keep me from "getting someone killed".


I have reviewed quite a bit of literature on peroxide propulsion, but
I am always happy to see more. If you have personal copies of
anything I haven't read, I would gladly pay a duplication fee.


John Carmack
www.armadilloaerospace.com


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