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-   -   United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets,EVERYTHING. (http://www.spacebanter.com/showthread.php?t=127333)

kT September 7th 08 03:53 AM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets,EVERYTHING.
 
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514

One look at NASA's Orion on Ares I (Constellation) and it's easy to see,
up front and personal, the tragic and inevitable decline of science,
physics and rocketry in the United States. The rest of the world has
already noticed, but Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to
see what is already glaringly obvious to the most casual of observers.

I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a research proposal.

Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.

Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.

BradGuth September 7th 08 04:14 AM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science,Rockets, EVERYTHING.
 


kT wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514

One look at NASA's Orion on Ares I (Constellation) and it's easy to see,
up front and personal, the tragic and inevitable decline of science,
physics and rocketry in the United States. The rest of the world has
already noticed, but Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to
see what is already glaringly obvious to the most casual of observers.

I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a research proposal.

Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.

Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.


And do you really think there's not been a Zionist/Nazi psychopath or
bipolar cartel/cabal of faith-based Idiocracy hard at work?

With the truth(s) becoming exposed, what's not at risk of failing
before our dumbfounded eyes?

What part of our frequent "told you so" still doesn't register with
the intentionally uneducated and misinformed public?

Once in perpetual denial as to a given lie that has been a mainstream
corner stone of ones entire life, of whatever's left to work with
isn't hardly worth salvaging, now is it.

~ BG

hanson September 7th 08 05:36 AM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets, EVERYTHING.
 

"BradGuth" wrote in message
...

Thomas Elifritz kT wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514
"...the tragic and inevitable decline of science,
physics and rocketry in the United States.
The rest of the world has already noticed, but
Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to
see what is already glaringly obvious to the most
casual of observers."
I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a
research proposal.
Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.
Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.


"BradGuth" wrote
And do you really think there's not been a Zionist/Nazi
psychopath or bipolar cartel/cabal of faith-based
Idiocracy hard at work?
With the truth(s) becoming exposed, what's not at risk
of failing before our dumbfounded eyes?
What part of our frequent "told you so" still doesn't
register with the intentionally uneducated and
misinformed public?
Once in perpetual denial as to a given lie that has
been a mainstream corner stone of ones entire life,
of whatever's left to work with isn't hardly worth
salvaging, now is it.

hanson wrote:
ahahahaha... All those symptoms you guys
bellyache about are simply & only the groans
that arise out of the loud noises from the
**** RE-TOOLING OF AMERICA ****
for its role in a Global economy... ahahaha...
Thanks for the laughs.... ahahahanson




jonathan[_3_] September 7th 08 04:42 PM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets, EVERYTHING.
 

"kT" wrote in message
...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514



Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of science
defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.

I would bet after all the billions and decades spent on such
a collider, the information and data gained would be
comprehensible and/or useful to perhaps a couple dozen
people in the entire world. Everyone else would have
to take their word for it the whole effort accomplished
anything. This new collider is the result of snobbish
European politicians being taken advantage of by some
gibberish speaking physicists with Big Degrees.

And what about the huge hole in the ground the Euros
have been throwing money into for decades called
fusion power?

We gave up on our big collider because enough people
....over here...realized the idiocy of the entire concept.

Even though most here are still ignorant of this fact, we're
now in the scientific error of complexity (systems)...not
reductionism (smashing things into little-bitty-pieces).
Where the attempt is to comprehend the properties which
occur as a result of the /totality/ of reality and it's near infinite
interactions and randomness. Instead of stomping reality
into dust ...as if that'll make sense of anything.

You've forgotten how far ahead the US is with complexity science.
Somehow I think the Euro snobs will be slow to accept these
new ideas.

The Use of Complexity Science
A survey of federal departments and agencies.

"Almost every federal department was found to have
some type of complexity-related research underway."
http://www.hcs.ucla.edu/DoEreport.pdf

Ask yourself, how can one scientific discipline apply
to ....every dept? From defense to education. From
agriculture to Los Alamos? Doesn't that get anyone's curiosity???
One science that redefines...all other disciplines ...including
hard, soft and philosophical.

Complexity defines the exact opposite in method from a collider.

Smashing everything into little-bitty-pieces in order to figure
out why we're here is literally a method resulting from our instincts
....our ANIMAL instincts. Which seeks to find certainty and simplicity
as a source of comfort in an ever changing and dangerous forest.
Our animal/caveman instincts prefers to pounce on that which
changes/moves or is different, or that which stands out from
the background.

And then we seek to find predictability in the way such things change
or move, to become better at the predator/prey game.

Only through our intellect will we grasp that the opposite frame of
complexity/uncertainty is the source of the most important properties
of nature and reality. It's what's common to all, the background, which
produces the source of our existence and predictability of the future.
Randomness and the fog of uncertainty generate spontaneous
cyclic order and provide the impetus for the common evolution
of the physical and living realms. Not particle properties.

As with a cloud, where neither condensation or evaporation dominate.
Or a market system, where neither the producer or consumer dominate.
Or a society, where neither law or freedom dominate.

Where both opposites extremes are intractably entangled, so that
one can't tell which-is-which, so that neither and both persistently
dominate. This is the system wide property which produces
the impetus for spontaneous order...for evolution and
self tuning or self organization.

As with evolution, where neither genetics or mutation dominate.
Or neither gravity or cosmic expansion for a universe.
Or where neither matter or energy dominates as with light.

Where neither static of chaotic behavior dominates..order
emerges.

At the union of opposite extremes, where classical and quantum
methods both fail, are intractably entangled, is the one place
where meaning and the ultimate source of nature is found.

Where uncertainty is highest is the source of order.
Science needs to change it's frame from seeking certainty
in the components, to uncertainty in a system.

The search for truth is now a search for uncertainty/complexity.

All you Dark Agers out there need to be told this at least once.
So you can't go saying it was kept from you all this time.



One look at NASA's Orion on Ares I (Constellation) and it's easy to see, up
front and personal, the tragic and inevitable decline of science, physics and
rocketry in the United States. The rest of the world has already noticed, but
Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to see what is already
glaringly obvious to the most casual of observers.



So you believe all that ability has vanished? Because our military
seems to be producing all kinds of interesting systems when
it comes to missile defense. Don't you understand just how
militaristic the Bush/Cheney administration has been?
The military comes first in all these areas, and they've been
in a race to militarize space for some time now.

All this means is that the very latest advances are all classified.
What they admit to building is probably ten or fifteen year old
accomplishments.

We're not in the midst of a plan to colonize the moon and mars.
Where in a race to build the Star Ship Enterprise!

We're not that far from replacing guns and rockets with
lasers and microwave weapons ya know.





I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a research proposal.

Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.

Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.





kT September 7th 08 06:09 PM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets,EVERYTHING.
 
jonathan wrote:

"kT" wrote in message
...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514



Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of science
defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.


Shhhhhhh ... don't let them in on the secret!

It's the only edge we've got anymore.

[snip]

We're not in the midst of a plan to colonize the moon and mars.
Where in a race to build the Star Ship Enterprise!


And a free electron laser VUV spectroscopy facility!

O' oh, I feel another song coming on!

http://www.wifel.wisc.edu/

I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a research proposal.

Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.

Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.


Which is a mere prelude to reversing the idiocracy and building the
rocket which will allow us to deliver the components of the star ship
Enterprise to low Earth orbit, to be subsequently assembled. la ISS.

http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/

Pat Flannery September 8th 08 07:43 AM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets,EVERYTHING.
 


jonathan wrote:
Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of science
defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.


I'm still keen to see CERN crank it up...about the time that Stephen
Hawking thinks: "Did I make a slip there? Was that a plus where a minus
should have gone in that formula around thirty years ago?"
Then, in around a matter of a hour or so, the entire solar system
collapses into the black hole where Earth used to be.
Many would be appalled to conceive of such a possibility.
I'd find that to be absolutely hilariously funny. :-D

Pat


Androcles[_8_] September 8th 08 11:15 AM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets, EVERYTHING.
 

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
dakotatelephone...


jonathan wrote:
Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of science
defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.


I'm still keen to see CERN crank it up...about the time that Stephen
Hawking thinks: "Did I make a slip there? Was that a plus where a minus
should have gone in that formula around thirty years ago?"
Then, in around a matter of a hour or so, the entire solar system
collapses into the black hole where Earth used to be.
Many would be appalled to conceive of such a possibility.
I'd find that to be absolutely hilariously funny. :-D

Pat


Don't worry, Brian (the brain) Cox is ready to step into Hawking's shoes
when nothing happens -- or should I say his wheelchair?
In watching BBC's "Horizon" the optimistic glow on the fresh young
face of that nutter restored my undying faith in the absolute (not even
relative) stupidity of theoretical physicists.
http://www.apolloschildren.com:16080/brian/






BradGuth September 8th 08 02:52 PM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science,Rockets, EVERYTHING.
 
On Sep 6, 9:36 pm, "hanson" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message

...

Thomas Elifritz kT wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514
"...the tragic and inevitable decline of science,
physics and rocketry in the United States.
The rest of the world has already noticed, but
Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to
see what is already glaringly obvious to the most
casual of observers."
I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a
research proposal.
Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.
Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.


"BradGuth" wrote And do you really think there's not been a Zionist/Nazi
psychopath or bipolar cartel/cabal of faith-based
Idiocracy hard at work?
With the truth(s) becoming exposed, what's not at risk
of failing before our dumbfounded eyes?
What part of our frequent "told you so" still doesn't
register with the intentionally uneducated and
misinformed public?
Once in perpetual denial as to a given lie that has
been a mainstream corner stone of ones entire life,
of whatever's left to work with isn't hardly worth
salvaging, now is it.


hanson wrote:

ahahahaha... All those symptoms you guys
bellyache about are simply & only the groans
that arise out of the loud noises from the
**** RE-TOOLING OF AMERICA ****
for its role in a Global economy... ahahaha...
Thanks for the laughs.... ahahahanson


We aim to please.

~ BG

Martha Adams September 8th 08 06:00 PM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets, EVERYTHING.
 
"Androcles" wrote in message
...

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
dakotatelephone...


jonathan wrote:
Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of
science
defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.


I'm still keen to see CERN crank it up...about the time that Stephen
Hawking thinks: "Did I make a slip there? Was that a plus where a
minus should have gone in that formula around thirty years ago?"
Then, in around a matter of a hour or so, the entire solar system
collapses into the black hole where Earth used to be.
Many would be appalled to conceive of such a possibility.
I'd find that to be absolutely hilariously funny. :-D

Pat


Don't worry, Brian (the brain) Cox is ready to step into Hawking's
shoes
when nothing happens -- or should I say his wheelchair?
In watching BBC's "Horizon" the optimistic glow on the fresh young
face of that nutter restored my undying faith in the absolute (not
even
relative) stupidity of theoretical physicists.
http://www.apolloschildren.com:16080/brian/


It's interesting to conjecture what would happen if we *did*
get a black-hole object. My guess is our planet would be a
few years falling into it, since energy released from the
falling would create a pressure field around it, thus slowing
the infall. *That means* we'd have time for an intense and
very fast space settlement program before increasingly
frequent earthquakes made large structures impossible to
build and use.

I'd propose for this a settlement on Luna farside as the
best compromise between maximum distance and minimum time to
build the settlement. The work would be to ship out as much
material as possible before further work becomes impossible,
and provide the 30-60 settlers with frozen human eggs and
sperm to maintain the necessary genetic diversity. It's an
interesting topic.

Actually, I can't agree with the idea the Super Collider and
theoretical physics and cosmology generally, are useless.
Back in the late 1800's, state of the art in
theoretical physics was how does light get created; how do
electric and magnetic fields work to move energies, and etc,
leading to things we take for granted today such as radio and
radar, transformers, computers etc etc. Of course there were
people like Jonathan then, convinced their kerosene lanterns,
gas lighting, and telegraph systems were completely all
anyone could need.

Having known some theoretical physicists personally, I can
speak from my own experience to say, they are some of the
quickest and brightest people around. When he says they
are doing

"...the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful
kind of science possible...."

Jonathan signals not knowing anything of the people or of
the work.

Titeotwawki -- mha [sci.space.policy 2008 Sep 08]





Ian Parker September 8th 08 07:29 PM

United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science,Rockets, EVERYTHING.
 
On 8 Sep, 18:00, "Martha Adams" wrote:
It's interesting to conjecture what would happen if we *did*
get a black-hole object. *My guess is our planet would be a
few years falling into it, since energy released from the
falling would create a pressure field around it, thus slowing
the infall. **That means* we'd have time for an intense and
very fast space settlement program before increasingly
frequent earthquakes made large structures impossible to
build and use.


If, if, if. You realise that it is completely impossible. A black hole
is NOT black. 14TeV seems a small energy, but suppose a BH were to be
created it wouls disappear almost immediately because of Hawking
radiation. Let us look at 14TeV at a point. In energy terms this
represents 1.6*10^-19 *14*10^12N or 2.2*10^-6N. This is

2.2*10^-6/9*10^16Kg or about 1.9*10^-22Kg. This has a Swartzchild
radius of 6.67*10^-11*1.9*10^-22/9*10^16m or about 10^-46m. The
hadrons cannot in fact enter this space because of plank uncertainty.
If we have string Theory and a large number iof dimensions we will get
BHs that reflect the different forces in a TOE.

As I said Hawking radiation would destroy such a hole as soon as it
was formed. Hawking radiation would be a little bit different in the
case of multidimensional holes as they would exhibit nuclear forces as
well as just EM radiation.

No, I think the Blach Hole idea reflects a deeper motive and
psychology. At the end of the ice age sea levels rose. The Thames was
once a tributory of the Rhine. Adam and Eve lived in the Shatt al
Arab, in what is now sea. The story of Genesis is in fact an attempt
of people to explain what was going on. Nothing about ice sheets, no
God was angry with Man because Man ate of the tree of knowledge. Even
at that point in history people thought the scientists of the day were
asking too many questions. This is the real point. Black holes can be
dismissed.

I'd propose for this a settlement on Luna farside as the
best compromise between maximum distance and minimum time to
build the settlement. *The work would be to ship out as much
material as possible before further work becomes impossible,
and provide the 30-60 settlers with frozen human eggs and
sperm to maintain the necessary genetic diversity. *It's an
interesting topic.


I would propose nothing.

Actually, I can't agree with the idea the Super Collider and
theoretical physics and cosmology generally, are useless.
Back in the late 1800's, state of the art in
theoretical physics was how does light get created; how do
electric and magnetic fields work to move energies, and etc,
leading to things we take for granted today such as radio and
radar, transformers, computers etc etc. *Of course there were
people like Jonathan then, convinced their kerosene lanterns,
gas lighting, and telegraph systems were completely all
anyone could need.

Having known some theoretical physicists personally, I can
speak from my own experience to say, they are some of the
quickest and brightest people around. *When he says they
are doing

"...the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful
kind of science possible...."

The original topic was is the US falling behind? I think the US is.
There are a number of reasons for this. The pschology of Theoretical
Physics is I think important. It may not produce immediate results but
a society that fails to invest will :-

1) Not inspire its young people.

2) Many scientists visit Geneva from overseas. You will get the
benefit of their thoughts on a number of topics.

3) There is a lot of work going on, such as the Grid which are of
considerable relevance practically.

I think the US is falling behind both Europe and Asia. I think there
are a number of reasons.

1) The failure to build a supercollider.

2) Creationalism, the view that the World is no older than the Ice
Age.

3) Governmenr interference with things like Stem Cell research.

4) The US is now a lot less welcoming to foreigners than it was in the
time of Kennedy.

None of these factors is decisive in itself, but taken together they
are a deterrent for young people to study science. I could add to this
the fact that a degree in sports journalism is more highly regarded
than one in science. Or Arabic for that matter! Decisions are taken at
a political level without a single expert being consulted.

The fact that capability in space has declined is obvious. Armstrong
and Aldrin went to the Moon on the top of a Saturn 5. With much more
advanced general technology Ares cannot be made to work. Of couse,
scientists go into private industry rather than government. Google
employs a lot of very bright people.

I think we can add another factor.

5) In the US good scientific minds do not go into government.

I write this as a European. Why should I care anyway.


- Ian Parker


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