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-   -   Looking into the past with a telescope (http://www.spacebanter.com/showthread.php?t=94507)

cantseeboo January 25th 07 05:33 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
With the JWT, I have read that scientist will be able to see back
closer to the big bang than with any modern telescope; targeting IR.

I understand that when we look at a DSO (or any object), that we are
looking at the DSO the way it looked at some time(t) in the past. In
this respect, we are looking at a snap shot of the past.

But what exactly are the astronomers expecting to see? New galaxies
not seen before due to their extreme red shift?


canopus56[_1_] January 26th 07 03:34 AM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
cantseeboo wrote:
With the JWT, I have read that scientist will be able to see back
closer to the big bang . . . . But what exactly are the astronomers
expecting to see? New galaxies not seen before due to their
extreme red shift?


The formation of the first galaxies. - Canopus56


cantseeboo January 26th 07 03:17 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 


The formation of the first galaxies. - Canopus56


1) Do the astronomers have an idea of where to look, or, are they just
going to perform random scanning of the sky?


Greg Crinklaw January 26th 07 03:26 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
cantseeboo wrote:

The formation of the first galaxies. - Canopus56


1) Do the astronomers have an idea of where to look, or, are they just
going to perform random scanning of the sky?


They surround us. But it would be a good idea to look somewhere there
is little between us and those great distances. A window, of sorts,
presumably away from Milky Way and large intervening clusters of galaxies.

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply take out your eye

cantseeboo January 26th 07 05:02 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
Since the distribution of galaxies on the large scale is isotropic, ....

Where do astronomers think the Milky Way is *in the Universe*? Towards
the center? Close to the edge? Any idea?

Do astronomers know where the universal center is? I guess that's the
same as asking where's the universe's center of gravity....Maybe
not....


oriel36 January 26th 07 05:05 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 


On Jan 25, 5:33 pm, "cantseeboo" wrote:
With the JWT, I have read that scientist will be able to see back
closer to the big bang than with any modern telescope; targeting IR.

I understand that when we look at a DSO (or any object), that we are
looking at the DSO the way it looked at some time(t) in the past. In
this respect, we are looking at a snap shot of the past.

But what exactly are the astronomers expecting to see? New galaxies
not seen before due to their extreme red shift?


Would you like to be the first to answer this question correctly.

You know that our solar system is moving with the rest of the local
stars around the Milky Way axis.

If you look at an external galaxy,say the Whirlpool galaxy,what would
you expect to happen after 1 million years ?.Remember the foreground
stars of the Milky Way are orbiting the galactic axis therefore we are
moving like a system on a giant carousel.

The idea is to develop the feel for cyclical motions and how to use the
illusion created by radiation having a finite speed just like Ole
Roemer used the orbital cycles of the Earth and Jupiter to determine
that light generates an illusion as we look into the celestial arena
where all the great cycles exist.


Chris L Peterson January 26th 07 05:18 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
On 26 Jan 2007 09:02:33 -0800, "cantseeboo"
wrote:

Where do astronomers think the Milky Way is *in the Universe*? Towards
the center? Close to the edge? Any idea?


Every 3D point in the Universe is at the center. There is no edge.


Do astronomers know where the universal center is?


In three dimensions, there is no center.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Starboard January 26th 07 05:20 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
Would you like to be the first to answer this question correctly.

You know that our solar system is moving with the rest of the local
stars around the Milky Way axis.


If you look at an external galaxy,say the Whirlpool galaxy,what would
you expect to happen after 1 million years ?.Remember the foreground
stars of the Milky Way are orbiting the galactic axis therefore we are
moving like a system on a giant carousel.


That seems true for indicating the direction to intergalaxy objects
with respect to intragalaxy objects, but is that true for indicating
direction of intergalaxy objects with respect to other intergalaxy
objects?

Don't listen to me, I'm tired as old hell from staying up late putting
together the NEW XT-12 Intelliscope.... Yeee doggie!

Errol
pasnola

Errol
pasnola


Greg Crinklaw January 26th 07 05:38 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
cantseeboo wrote:
Since the distribution of galaxies on the large scale is isotropic, ....


Where do astronomers think the Milky Way is *in the Universe*? Towards
the center? Close to the edge? Any idea?

Do astronomers know where the universal center is? I guess that's the
same as asking where's the universe's center of gravity....Maybe
not....


The Universe has no true center. The frames of reference we are used to
on the earth are only illusions. In the universe at large no two
observers (people) can be expected to keep the same time much less agree
where to measure everything from.

Imagine that you live on the earth but think it is flat. The flatness
of the earth is an illusion. For a person who sees the earth in terms
of this illusion, where then is the center of the earth? If you put a
marker into the ground and start walking in a straight line you will
eventually come back to the marker... So where is the edge of the earth?
Where is the center? Is it infinite? The universe is like that; it
isn't that the universe is weird, it's that we perceive it in a
simplistic way--just like the person who perceives the earth as flat.

In a very real sense the position of each observer is the center of the
universe. Relativity teaches us that everything is relative--which
means there are no absolutes. A universal center is an absolute. Every
observer sees the universe from their own perspective, both in space and
time. As we cling to this tiny planet the differences in perspective
are small, so we ignore them. Not so with the universe at large!

So from our point of view on this planet we are the only center that can
be defined with any meaning; the universe appears around us as if we are
at its center.

Greg

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply take out your eye

cantseeboo January 26th 07 08:39 PM

Looking into the past with a telescope
 
Starboard (Errol) e-mailed me the following replies. Said that the
board would not accept his post for some reason.. I'm posting for
him...

cantseeboo........................................ .................................................. .

I guess that's the same as asking where's the universe's center of gravity....


The Universe has no true center. The frames of reference we are used to
on the earth are only illusions. In the universe at large no two
observers (people) can be expected to keep the same time much less agree
where to measure everything from.


When the universe came into being, it began expanding into, what I
first heard
referred to by Prof. Hawking, nothingness. But suppose someone viewed
said expanse from that area of nothingness. Could he say "I saw the
universe
expand away from some point in the universe's interior."?

Would it be the same as asking "if there were a big crunch, to what
point in the
universe would all matter crunch to?"

Imagine that you live on the earth but think it is flat. The flatness
of the earth is an illusion. For a person who sees the earth in terms
of this illusion, where then is the center of the earth? Where is the center?


Seems obvious, but don't you think difficulties arise when one states
that the
flatness expanded from a single point in the past?

In a very real sense the position of each observer is the center of the
universe. Relativity teaches us that everything is relative--which
means there are no absolutes.


Agreed that relativity does teach us that there is no preferred place
from which to take a measurement, however, isn't it also reasonable to
assume that the universe did expand away from some point in the
universe's interior in the distant past?

Errol
pasnola



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