Re: Is Joe Barton Right (Stop STS)?

[George William Herbert]

Dick Morris > wrote:
>>> [...]
>> How do airliners do it?
>
>They overfly populated areas all the time.

During early flight test? I don't *think* so...


-george william herbert

[Dick Morris]

George William Herbert wrote:
>
> Dick Morris > wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >> How do airliners do it?
> >
> >They overfly populated areas all the time.
>
> During early flight test? I don't *think* so...
>
> -george william herbert
>

Our Renton and Everett plants are in populated areas, so the first
flights are necessarily over populated areas. The Flight Test center is
at Boeing Field which is in an even more densely populated area. Some
flight testing is done over at Moses Lake, or, IIRC, down at Edwards
AFB, but a substantial portion is over populated areas.

[Christopher M. Jones]

"Brian Thorn" > wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2003 19:39:25 -0700, (George William
> Herbert) wrote:
>
> >>> How do airliners do it?
> >>
> >>They overfly populated areas all the time.
> >
> >During early flight test? I don't *think* so...
>
> But airliners have been known to kill people on the ground. No manned
> spacecraft ever has. So why not ban airliners from flying over
> populated areas?

That's an erroneous argument. Manned spaceflight is
very rare, so of course you'd expect the incident rate
in ground fatalaties to be much lower than with
airplanes. Even if manned spaceflight was 10x more
likely to kill people on the ground than airplanes,
you wouldn't expect any deaths yet based on the small
number of manned spaceflights.


Also, rocket launches over populated areas *have*
killed people before, just ask the Chinese.

[Dick Morris]

Brian Thorn wrote:
>
> On 10 Jul 2003 19:39:25 -0700, (George William
> Herbert) wrote:
>
> >>> How do airliners do it?
> >>
> >>They overfly populated areas all the time.
> >
> >During early flight test? I don't *think* so...
>
> But airliners have been known to kill people on the ground. No manned
> spacecraft ever has. So why not ban airliners from flying over
> populated areas?
>
> Brian

They only do so once in many millions of flights.

[Hallerb]

>
>> >>> How do airliners do it?
>> >>
>> >>They overfly populated areas all the time.

If airliners failed at the SAME RATE as the shuttles 40 per day would crash.j

[Brian Thorn]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 20:49:40 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones"
> wrote:


>> >>They overfly populated areas all the time.
>> >
>> >During early flight test? I don't *think* so...
>>
>> But airliners have been known to kill people on the ground. No manned
>> spacecraft ever has. So why not ban airliners from flying over
>> populated areas?
>
>That's an erroneous argument.

The whole argument is erroneous, that's my point.

>Even if manned spaceflight was 10x more
>likely to kill people on the ground than airplanes,
>you wouldn't expect any deaths yet based on the small
>number of manned spaceflights.

Then why bother trying to ban it?

>Also, rocket launches over populated areas *have*
>killed people before, just ask the Chinese.

The Chinese deny it. Gotta love 'em.

Brian

[Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)]

"Brian Thorn" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:23:16 GMT, Dick Morris
> > wrote:
>
> >> >During early flight test? I don't *think* so...
> >>
> >> But airliners have been known to kill people on the ground. No manned
> >> spacecraft ever has. So why not ban airliners from flying over
> >> populated areas?
>
> >They only do so once in many millions of flights.
>
> And when they do, it tends to be near an airport. So I say that the
> statistics strongly suggest we should ban all aircraft from flying
> near airports.
>
> I love statistics! :-)

Hey, ever since I learned that 90% of all car accidents occur within 5 miles
of my home, I park my car 5 miles away and walk the rest.


>
> Brian

[Dick Morris]

Brian Thorn wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:23:16 GMT, Dick Morris
> > wrote:
>
> >> >During early flight test? I don't *think* so...
> >>
> >> But airliners have been known to kill people on the ground. No manned
> >> spacecraft ever has. So why not ban airliners from flying over
> >> populated areas?
>
> >They only do so once in many millions of flights.
>
> And when they do, it tends to be near an airport. So I say that the
> statistics strongly suggest we should ban all aircraft from flying
> near airports.
>
> I love statistics! :-)
>
I hate statistics. :-(

> Brian

[Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)]

"Rand Simberg" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:07:30 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Greg D.
> Moore \(Strider\)" > made the phosphor on my
> monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>
> >Hey, ever since I learned that 90% of all car accidents occur within 5
miles
> >of my home, I park my car 5 miles away and walk the rest.
>
> Why don't you just move?
>

What and find a place 5 miles further from work?


> --
> simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
> interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org
>
> "Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
> Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
> Here's my email address for autospammers:

[OM]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:23:31 GMT, (Rand
Simberg) wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:07:30 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Greg D.
>Moore \(Strider\)" > made the phosphor on my
>monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>
>>Hey, ever since I learned that 90% of all car accidents occur within 5 miles
>>of my home, I park my car 5 miles away and walk the rest.
>
>Why don't you just move?

....Because he's an idiot?


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

[Jorge R. Frank]

Dick Morris > wrote in
:

> Brian Thorn wrote:
>>
>> On 10 Jul 2003 19:39:25 -0700, (George William
>> Herbert) wrote:
>>
>> >>> How do airliners do it?
>> >>
>> >>They overfly populated areas all the time.
>> >
>> >During early flight test? I don't *think* so...
>>
>> But airliners have been known to kill people on the ground. No manned
>> spacecraft ever has. So why not ban airliners from flying over
>> populated areas?
>
> They only do so once in many millions of flights.

But they fly many millions of flights, so the risks balance out.

Even a random person in the US is much more likely to be killed by airliner
debris than by space shuttle debris. A person living near an airport even
moreso. Of course, both probabilities are vanishingly small. That is small
comfort, I'm sure, to the families of those killed in Queens.

For the record, I live under the takeoff pattern at Ellington Field, and
regularly have NASA T-38s and Texas Air National Guard F-16s and F-18s
flying overhead. I consider the risk acceptable. For that matter, I would
consider the risk acceptable if every single shuttle reentry were targeted
to fly right over my house (not that that's possible...). Like Roger and
Jon, I'd be unable to sleep - not from fear, but because I'd be outside
with my camera.

--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

[Christopher M. Jones]

"Brian Thorn" > wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 20:49:40 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones"
> > wrote:
> >> But airliners have been known to kill people on the ground. No manned
> >> spacecraft ever has. So why not ban airliners from flying over
> >> populated areas?
> >
> >That's an erroneous argument.
>
> The whole argument is erroneous, that's my point.

I'm not out of order, YOU'RE out of order!

Errr, and by that I mean, ok, that's all fine and good but
I think it's probably worth the extra words to argue
directly against the argument than to raise a false
argument that you think is along the same lines and is
equally erroneous. It's like those people asking why we
haven't bombed North Korea yet but who don't really want
us to bomb North Korea at all.


> >Even if manned spaceflight was 10x more
> >likely to kill people on the ground than airplanes,
> >you wouldn't expect any deaths yet based on the small
> >number of manned spaceflights.
>
> Then why bother trying to ban it?

There's this thing where people pop in and out of
threads and where sub-threads drift off topic and end
up being skewed from or sometimes entirely different
from the original topic. We call it usenet. Do try
to keep up. =)


> >Also, rocket launches over populated areas *have*
> >killed people before, just ask the Chinese.
>
> The Chinese deny it. Gotta love 'em.

Well of course, if they admitted it it'd be even worse
PR, and it was bad enough as it was.