Should program manager be out of town during shuttle flight

[Hallerb]

http://www.floridatoday.com/columbia/columbiastory2A4795A.htm

At this point I dont understand how anyone can defend him. Blocked of time for
King holiday?? Yeah take your 3 day weekends during a flight.:(

He shouldnt be allowed to quit he should be FIRED, along with the other
responsible indivuiduals!

[Brian Gaff]

well the way launch dates move about and the way you book holidays nearly
always conspire to cause a clash. The question is, was the management system
robust enough to work in one key person's absence, I believe in the old
adage..

The cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________
__________________________________


"Hallerb" > wrote in message
...
| http://www.floridatoday.com/columbia/columbiastory2A4795A.htm
|
| At this point I dont understand how anyone can defend him. Blocked of time
for
| King holiday?? Yeah take your 3 day weekends during a flight.:(
|
| He shouldnt be allowed to quit he should be FIRED, along with the other
| responsible indivuiduals!


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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Sam Seiber]

Hallerb wrote:
>
> http://www.floridatoday.com/columbia/columbiastory2A4795A.htm
>
> At this point I dont understand how anyone can defend him. Blocked of time for
> King holiday?? Yeah take your 3 day weekends during a flight.:(
>
> He shouldnt be allowed to quit he should be FIRED, along with the other
> responsible indivuiduals!

So, we were something like a meeting or two away from a safe flight?
Just trying to understand the real problem.

Sam

[Bill Harris]

Hallerb wrote:
<< At this point I dont understand how anyone can defend him. >>

I still can't understand how anyone can be as much an idiot as you are.
Bill Harris

Sci-Fi Quote of the month:
"We will never forgive and we will never forget." - Stilgar, "Dune"

[Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to \s\]

On 3 Jul 2003 23:58:15 GMT, rk > wrote:

>Hallerb wrote:
>
>> http://www.floridatoday.com/columbia/columbiastory2A4795A.htm
>>
>> At this point I dont understand how anyone can defend him. Blocked
>> of time for King holiday?? Yeah take your 3 day weekends during a
>> flight.:(
>>
>> He shouldnt be allowed to quit he should be FIRED, along with the
>> other responsible indivuiduals!
>
[snip]
>
>Now, I have heard, multiple times, your repeated public calls for
>execution. It seems that more facts are coming out now and perhaps more
>facts will come out in the CAIB report.

We know you want to see them publicly flogged, put in the stockade in the
square, and then drawn and quartered on national television.

Can you give it a rest for a bit please? It's getting old and nothing you say
is going to do anything. We know how you feel.

Of course, since they are civil servants they can't be fired, but you shouldn't
let the facts get in the way of a rant....

[Hallerb]

>
>So, we were something like a meeting or two away from a safe flight?
>Just trying to understand the real problem.

Gross disregard for flight rules calling for DAILY meetings.

Lack of common sense. When you only fly such a limited number of flights a year
the program manager should be on site for operations and not vacation during
flights or traveling to contractors.

Dittmore should be fired for stupidity. Its no wonder he annouced his
retirement so quickly after the accident. He knew this would all come out..

[Hallerb]

>
>I still can't understand how anyone can be as much an idiot as you are.
>Bill Harris
>

Yeah kill the messenger. Tyical for people with their head in sand not wanting
to see the truth`

[Dale]

On 04 Jul 2003 03:55:31 GMT, (Hallerb) wrote:

>Dittmore should be fired for stupidity.

Funny, he strikes me as being very smart.

>Its no wonder he annouced his retirement so quickly after the accident.
>He knew this would all come out..

He announced his intention to leave well before 107.

I'm with Mr. Grabois on this one- give it a rest. If anyone
doesn't know where you stand by now, they never will.

Dale

[Mike Speegle]

In news:Hallerb > typed:
> > I still can't understand how anyone can be as much an idiot as you
> > are.
> > Bill Harris
> >
>
> Yeah kill the messenger. Tyical for people with their head in sand
> not wanting to see the truth`

No, we just have a better understanding of the reality of the
situation. Look Bob, you expect respect from us. You've been told many
times that your crappy use of English and your attrocious spelling
actually offend people here. Yet you show us no respect by your ongoing
butchery of our language. It would take so little time to write
properly. You disrespect us yet you expect respect because you want
more safety. You're a ****ing disgrace, Bob.
--
Mike
__________________________________________________ ______
"Colorado Ski Country, USA" Come often, Ski hard,
Spend *lots* of money, Then leave as quickly as you can.
Rec.Skiing.Alpine.Moderated is up and working! Join in!

[Brian Gaff]

"Mike Speegle" > wrote in message
...
| In news:Hallerb > typed:
| > > I still can't understand how anyone can be as much an idiot as you
| > > are.
| > > Bill Harris
| > >
| >
| > Yeah kill the messenger. Tyical for people with their head in sand
| > not wanting to see the truth`
|
| No, we just have a better understanding of the reality of the
| situation. Look Bob, you expect respect from us. You've been told many
| times that your crappy use of English and your attrocious spelling
| actually offend people here. Yet you show us no respect by your ongoing
| butchery of our language. It would take so little time to write
| properly. You disrespect us yet you expect respect because you want
| more safety. You're a ****ing disgrace, Bob.
| --
| Mike
| __________________________________________________ ______
| "Colorado Ski Country, USA" Come often, Ski hard,
| Spend *lots* of money, Then leave as quickly as you can.
| Rec.Skiing.Alpine.Moderated is up and working! Join in!
|
|

I have a word for those who are more interested in the correct speelink and
gand mar than in the message itself, but as its not greatly appreciated,
i'll not use it.

Come on, stop being so pedantic.

Discuss the point, not the grammar. Some of us with no English
qualifications still have brains.

Well, sort of...

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________
__________________________________





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[Hallerb]

>
>Actually, we can be fired. But it is very difficult and very long process,
>so
>it's only done in cases of utterly failing to perform. In my 17 years at
>USNO,
>I've only seen it happen once and I heard of one other before I got there.
>
>Bill Harris
>

Ahh so a program manager isnt fired fr utter disregard for following their own
flight rules?

Perhaps others are right. NASA says here is what we want to do. Companies bid
on doing it and nasa is ONLY a CUSTOMER!

I believe that private industry still bounces people who dont perform....

[Mike Speegle]

In news:Bruce Palmer > typed:

> Brian, your point is taken, however I thought Mike succinctly summed
> up
> the situation. Many people, myself included, have great disdain for
> those who willfully misuse the English language. I usually just
> ignore
> them instead of calling them on it in public. Mike's post does, in
> fact, discuss the point. The point is that Bob is a buffoon.
> Whenever
> I see his posts I picture (really) Bozo the Clown standing on a street
> corner. Bozo rants and raves. No one listens or cares, and Bozo is
> unwilling to clean up his act.

<g> Thanks, Bruce, I didn't really want to get into it with Brian.
But in a medium that consists entirely of written language, to
continually disrespect the remaining members as consistently as Haller
does is insulting. Having been taught by nuns (I keep hearing Cheech &
Chong's Sister Mary Eelephant), language, useage and spelling were the
cornerstone of proper communication. And keeping from getting your
knuckles rapped with the ruler. ;-)

Reading Guth's diatribes can be painful to the brain attemting to
decipher paragraph long sentences. And Bob Haller's attempts to speak
here are often plainly unintelligible. Oh, and congrats on your HORS
membership. I sincerely hope you acquired it without actually having to
read *that* book. A dementional experience, that is. ;-)
--
Mike
__________________________________________________ ______
"Colorado Ski Country, USA" Come often, Ski hard,
Spend *lots* of money, Then leave as quickly as you can.

[Roger Balettie]

"Hallerb" > wrote:
> Gross disregard for flight rules calling for DAILY meetings.

Quote the Flight Rule that says that Bob.

My bet is you can't.

> Lack of common sense. When you only fly such a limited number of
> flights a year the program manager should be on site for operations
> and not vacation during flights or traveling to contractors.

In every scenario that requires one, Program Managers have Deputies to stand
in for them sometimes for standard meetings when they are not available for
whatever reason. At the time, they were not working any issues that
required his immediate presence.

If an issue had been brought forward (no argument that with 20/20 hindsight
more attention should have been paid to the foam strike analysis), I have no
doubt in my mind whatsoever that Dittemore would have been in the middle of
an intense set of discussions.

The very fact that the meeting was cancelled showed that the MMT did not
have any issues that required a meeting.

> Dittmore should be fired for stupidity.

Fortunately for *all* of us, you have no bearing on the personnel
decision-making process at all. Your "Chicken Little" squawkings are really
getting old.

> Its no wonder he annouced his retirement so quickly after the
> accident. He knew this would all come out..

It's a good thing your opinion is as insignificant as it is, Bob... and
wrong to boot.

Roger
--
Roger Balettie
former Flight Dynamics Officer
Space Shuttle Mission Control
http://www.balettie.com/

[Roger Balettie]

"rk" > wrote:
> * NASA spokesman James Hartsfield said Dittemore remained in
> constant daily contact with members of the shuttle team in
> Houston during Columbia's mission.
>
> * He and other managers were equipped to communicate by laptop
> computer, cellular telephone and handheld instant messaging
> devices.
>
> * Roe said deputies attended the meeting on his behalf.
>
> So, indeed, it appears that daily contact was made and equipment was in
> hand to aid in communications.

Bingo.

Exactly what I was saying earlier.

Bob -- did you even read what Rich posted above? What is your comment now?

Roger
--
Roger Balettie
former Flight Dynamics Officer
Space Shuttle Mission Control
http://www.balettie.com/

[Hallerb]

> * Roe said deputies attended the meeting on his behalf.
>
> So, indeed, it appears that daily contact was made and equipment was in
> hand to aid in communications.

>Bingo.
>
>Exactly what I was saying earlier.
>
>Bob -- did you even read what Rich posted above? What is your comment now?
>
>Roger
>--
>Roger Balettie
>former Flight Dynamics Officer
>Space Shuttle Mission Control
>http://www.balettie.c

Didnt you read the rest? The daily meetings were NOT held as flight rules
required/

Besides e mail phone and such does NOT replace personal communication eye to
eye.

Dont you feel being on site during actual flights would be better? He also
vacationed for a three day holiday and no meeting was held at this critical
time.

When you were a controller did you take flight rules seriously?

Or were they just a suggestion?

Appearances indicate they were only that for dittmore.

[Roger Balettie]

"Hallerb" > wrote:
> When you were a controller did you take flight rules seriously?
>
> Or were they just a suggestion?

You've crossed yet another line with me, Bob.

Now, you're insinuating that *I* didn't follow the Flight Rules on console?

How *dare* you?

Do you have even the *slightest clue* what it takes to be in a position of
responsibility?

Again, I would guess that you do *not*.

Roger
--
Roger Balettie
former Flight Dynamics Officer
Space Shuttle Mission Control
http://www.balettie.com/

[Hallerb]

>You've crossed yet another line with me, Bob.
>
>Now, you're insinuating that *I* didn't follow the Flight Rules on console?
>
>How *dare* you?
>
>Do you have even the *slightest clue* what it takes to be in a position of
>responsibility?
>
>Again, I would guess that you do *not*.
>
>Roger
>--
>Roger Balettie
>former Flight Dynamics Officer

No I asked if you did. Dittmores group ignored this written rule. Perhaps
things went downhill since you left?

I was hoping you would say we always followed the rules then I would ask about
this.

"The shuttle program has a written requirement that the Mission Management Team
meet once a day. In practice, however, the meetings have been less frequent."

[Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to \s\]

On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 01:28:07 GMT, "Roger Balettie" >
wrote:

>"Hallerb" > wrote:
>> Gross disregard for flight rules calling for DAILY meetings.
>
>Quote the Flight Rule that says that Bob.
>
>My bet is you can't.

He can try by looking on NASA's Columbia investigation page, specifically at
the documents obtained under the FOIA.
http://www.nasa.gov/columbia/foia/index.html

About halfway down he'll see the FLIGHT DATA FILES header, followed by the
STS-107 flight-specific Flight Rules and then the Generic Flight Rules. To save
time, here are the direct links:
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/news/columbia/fr_sts107.pdf
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/news/columbia/fr_generic.pdf

(As an aside, this is probably the first time the Flight Rules have ever been
put online. When you access the documents via JSC's internal web, there's a
notice that pops up every time you open a chapter saying how it's forbidden to
post a copy of the Flight Rules in any format anywhere.)

[Jorge R. Frank]

(Kent Betts) wrote in
om:

> Now I'm confused. I thought that Dittmore was the senior manager of
> the Columbia flight.

Dittemore was the Space Shuttle Program Manager.

Linda Ham was the head of the Mission Management Team for STS-107.
--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

[Roger Balettie]

"Kent Betts" > wrote:
> Now I'm confused.

Yes, you are.

> Management was determined to conclude that the foam was not a problem.

Prove that or back off of that statement.

There is no evidence *whatsoever* that anyone was *overtly or covertly*
trying to cover anything up. There is no conspiracy here. There were some
bad assumptions made early on as to where the foam strikes had hit and then
what damage they did to the RCC leading edge, as opposed to the underbelly
tiles. But, there was *no* management determination to hide or minimize the
problem.

> The Stitch e-mail is patently offensive.

No... your uneducated jumping to conclusions and accusing very good people
(and a number of my personal friends) of an active attempt to cover up "bad
news" is offensive.

> Who in the hell let Stitch issue this e-mail?

It's his perogative as shift Flight Director to send a summary message to
the crew whenever he believes it necessary. Based on the information he had
at the time, he determined a note to the CDR and PLT was appropriate.

Roger
--
Roger Balettie
former Flight Dynamics Officer
Space Shuttle Mission Control
http://www.balettie.com/

[Lynndel Humphreys]

active attempt to cover up "bad
> news" is offensive.
>
How about covering up bad "bad news" or bad "bad "bad news"".....




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[John Maxson]

Giganews hosts/posts Bob Mosley's abuse for Illuminati Online.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)


OM <om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_research _facility.org>
wrote in message ...
> On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 02:02:25 GMT, "Roger Balettie"
> > wrote:
>
> >You've crossed yet another line with me, Bob.
>
> ...Bob Haller crossed the line when his Maxson's Syndrome reached
> terminal phase. Between his buttkissing of scott grissom, and the
> shock of 2/1/03, Bob Haller has gone totally and completely off the
> deep end. His sanity has flown the coop, and gone to join wherever the
> sanities of CT nutters go. The best thing to do at this point, is
> chalk him up as a lost cause, group him in with the Maxson trash, and
> exile him to Killfile Hell for all eternity.
>
> I plonked him several months ago, and it actually reduced traffic by
> 10%, not counting replies to his drivel...
>
>
> OM
>
> --
>
> "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
> his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
> poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
>
> - General George S. Patton, Jr

[OM]

On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 16:20:59 GMT, "Roger Balettie"
> wrote:

>> Management was determined to conclude that the foam was not a problem.
>
>Prove that or back off of that statement.
>
>There is no evidence *whatsoever* that anyone was *overtly or covertly*
>trying to cover anything up. There is no conspiracy here. There were some
>bad assumptions made early on as to where the foam strikes had hit and then
>what damage they did to the RCC leading edge, as opposed to the underbelly
>tiles. But, there was *no* management determination to hide or minimize the
>problem.

....This is where some clarifications need to be made for the clueless:
when you make an effort to prove something did not happen through
scientific methodology - that is, analizing the data using standard
and accepted scientific practices - it is NOT a conspiracy to cover
things up. It's simply an attempt to make sure the true nature of a
situation is not muddled by misinterpretations, deliberate or
otherwise.


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

[OM]

On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 02:02:25 GMT, "Roger Balettie"
> wrote:

>You've crossed yet another line with me, Bob.

....Bob Haller crossed the line when his Maxson's Syndrome reached
terminal phase. Between his buttkissing of scott grissom, and the
shock of 2/1/03, Bob Haller has gone totally and completely off the
deep end. His sanity has flown the coop, and gone to join wherever the
sanities of CT nutters go. The best thing to do at this point, is
chalk him up as a lost cause, group him in with the Maxson trash, and
exile him to Killfile Hell for all eternity.

I plonked him several months ago, and it actually reduced traffic by
10%, not counting replies to his drivel...


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

[Hallerb]

THIS ALL FROM FLORIDA TODAY THE LINK HAS BEEN POSTED REPATEDLY

In fact, mission managers met only five times during the 16-day flight despite
a NASA requirement that they meet daily.

They did not meet once during a three-day holiday weekend that followed
Columbia's Jan. 16 launch

In fact, mission managers met only five times during the 16-day flight despite
a NASA requirement that they meet daily

A copy of Dittemore's schedule shows he made NASA business trips to California
on Jan. 22 and 23 and Utah on Jan. 24 and 25.

It also shows he blocked off time from Jan. 18 to Jan. 20 for the Martin Luther
King holiday weekend, as well as the weekend of Jan. 25 and Jan. 26.

Accident investigators are looking into whether the two were fully engaged
throughout a science mission that lacked the high regard of a flight to the
International Space Station.

Most notably, they could not attend a Mission Management Team meeting on Jan.
24.

Now let me ask this again:( Is it typical at NASA to ignore mission rules that
require DAILY meetings?

Isnt it reasoinable that mission managers are on site during actual missions?
After all there are so few. Its not like were flying every week.

Is it possible this flight didnt get the full attention of management because
it wasnt to ISS?

Roger I guess it really doesnt matter what you say. Dittmore quit, and the
other managers are being reassigned.

I woulds of prefered to see them fired so others would be more careful in the
future.

But I guess going out in disgrace with a dead crew is punishment in itself.

Dittmores group allowed critical one foam to become a maintenance issue. He was
quoted as saying we didnt worry about it because it hadnt caused a problem.

Reminds me of Larry Mullroy saying basically trhe same thing about the o rings.

None of them were doing their job.

[Bryan Ashcraft]

> "Hallerb" > wrote in message

> | At this point I dont understand how anyone can defend him. Blocked of
time
> for
> | King holiday?? Yeah take your 3 day weekends during a flight.:(
> |
> | He shouldnt be allowed to quit he should be FIRED, along with the other
> | responsible indivuiduals!

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message

> well the way launch dates move about and the way you book holidays nearly
> always conspire to cause a clash. The question is, was the management
system
> robust enough to work in one key person's absence, I believe in the old
> adage..
>
> The cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.
>
> Brian



IMHO any organisation worth their salt should have a number of suitably
qualified deputies to allow people to take vacation time when they choose
within reason. I wonder if the CAIB looked into that too?

BA

[Doug...]

In article >,
says...
>
> <snip>
>
> IMHO any organisation worth their salt should have a number of suitably
> qualified deputies to allow people to take vacation time when they choose
> within reason. I wonder if the CAIB looked into that too?

And in my so-far-cursory inspection of the flight rules documents, links
to which have been posted here, the rules seem to specifically state that
there are responsibilities for the various management personnel (like the
Program Manager) *or their authorized deputies*. Which means that the
process works both with the specific management personnel or their
deputies. Which was the case here.

Hindsight is wonderful. Just don't convince yourself that foresight can
*ever* possibly be as accurate as hindsight.

--

It's not the pace of life I mind; | Doug Van Dorn
it's the sudden stop at the end... |

[Bruce Palmer]

Jorge R. Frank wrote:
> (Kent Betts) wrote in
> om:
>
>
>>Now I'm confused. I thought that Dittmore was the senior manager of
>>the Columbia flight.
>
>
> Dittemore was the Space Shuttle Program Manager.
>
> Linda Ham was the head of the Mission Management Team for STS-107.

Was she one of those given a guarantee of anonymity with respect to her
testimony before the Board?

If anyone thinks Congress is going to just accept the CAIB's
recommendations and NASA's remedial activity and sign off on RTF, well,
they had better think again. This is not an election year so perhaps
the Congressional Search For The Guilty won't be _too_ fierce, but don't
think for a minute that the need to fly ISS missions won't deter some
Congressmen from trying to grind their axes. Some of them would like
nothing more than to kill *both* programs and they will use this
opportunity to showcase their agendas.

The anonymity granted by the CAIB may hold up as far as Board testimony
goes, but Congress can compel testimony all over again without anonymity
if it chooses to hold its own hearings. I don't claim to have my finger
on the pulse of Washington, and Congress is currently in recess, so what
they actually decide to do may not be known for a couple of months yet.
I would expect the current state of the economy and U.S. jobless
figures to weigh in facor of _not_ cancelling either program. We here
like to take the longer view of things when it comes to exploring outer
space, but no Congressman today can be expected to look past the next
election. In this respect lobbying by the large NASA aerospace
contractors can also be expected to have some influence.

All that will not prevent some in Congress from pushing their own
agendas, like I said before. There _will_ be public debate after the
CAIB has completed its work and if it's a slow news season this autumn
you can bet some of the slimers in D.C. will want to make some hay. I
would expect that Ms. Ham is going to have her turn in the barrel in the
near future, along with some other Shuttle Program folks.

--
bp
Proud Member of the Human O-Ring Society Since 2003

[Hallerb]

>
>there are responsibilities for the various management personnel (like the
>Program Manager) *or their authorized deputies*. Which means that the
>process works both with the specific management personnel or their
>deputies. Which was the case h

Ok but their associates didnt meet the flight rules either.

Althoiugh with the very low flight rate you would figure frst line folks would
be there during actual operations

[[email protected]]

"John Maxson" > wrote in message >...
> Hallerb > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >
> Death threats and firing are reserved for those like Gus Grissom
> (remember the lemon) and myself who make an effort to save
> vehicle and crew.
>
and there has been a second lemon hung on the Apollo 1 fire
investigation.

[Bill Harris]

<< Ahh so a program manager isnt fired fr utter disregard for following their
own flight rules? >>

I wish you could be banned from AOL for your "utter disregard" for the spell
checker that is built into the software.


Idiot.

Bill Harris

Sci-Fi Quote of the month:
"We will never forgive and we will never forget." - Stilgar, "Dune"

[[email protected]]

OM <om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_research _facility.org> wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 02:02:25 GMT, "Roger Balettie"
> > wrote:
>
> >You've crossed yet another line with me, Bob.
>
> ...Bob Haller crossed the line when his Maxson's Syndrome reached
> terminal phase. Between his buttkissing of scott grissom, and the
> shock of 2/1/03, Bob Haller has gone totally and completely off the
> deep end. His sanity has flown the coop, and gone to join wherever the
> sanities of CT nutters go. The best thing to do at this point, is
> chalk him up as a lost cause, group him in with the Maxson trash, and
> exile him to Killfile Hell for all eternity.
>
> I plonked him several months ago, and it actually reduced traffic by
> 10%, not counting replies to his drivel...
>
>
> OM

the sergeant of the austin glory hole is ****ed and we're all
going to bow. toilet. turd. mosley.

[John Maxson]

Giganews proudly enables Mosley's campaign.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)



OM <om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_research _facility.org>
wrote in message ...
> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:12:06 -0400, "Scott Hedrick"
> > wrote:
>
> >"I'm just a zero" > wrote in message
> >
> >"scott" has to play with make-believe friends once again.
>
> ...Yeah, those Maxson sock puppets are pretty hard not to miss.
> They're the ones perched on the middle finger.
>
>
> OM
>
> --
>
> "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
> his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
> poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
>
> - General George S. Patton, Jr

[Sam Seiber]

Mike Speegle wrote:
> No, we just have a better understanding of the reality of the
> situation. Look Bob, you expect respect from us. You've been told many
> times that your crappy use of English and your attrocious spelling
> actually offend people here. Yet you show us no respect by your ongoing
> butchery of our language. It would take so little time to write
> properly. You disrespect us yet you expect respect because you want
> more safety. You're a ****ing disgrace, Bob.

I read the followups to this post. My point is just this:
He has been given an education on his poor grammer, but he seems
to have put zero value on it. So, he indicates that he knows
it should be "would have", but he insists on using "would of".
I don't think he wants to learn anything!
Also, it really looks like he slam types in his message and
right to the send button. I don't think he reads over his
own messages before going for *send*.
****, I look over all of my usnet or e-mail posts at least
twice before I punch the 'ole send button.
Proof reading, it is a good thing.

Sam

[Sam Seiber]

Bill Harris wrote:
> I wish you could be banned from AOL for your "utter disregard" for the spell
> checker that is built into the software.

He may be posting from a teletype, and thus has no way to correct his
typing errors. But a teletype wouldn't explain his lack of desire to
implement our grammer lessons.

He is mad at the managers for breaking rules, but wanted to launch
Atlantis for a rescue mission, breaking *all kinds* of rules.

The man is truly baffling.

Sam

[Sam Seiber]

Hallerb wrote:
> Gross disregard for flight rules calling for DAILY meetings.

Still can't see how just a few more meetings would have saved
the ship and crew. Perhaps you could shed some light on this one for
me.

>
> Lack of common sense. When you only fly such a limited number of flights a year
> the program manager should be on site for operations and not vacation during
> flights or traveling to contractors.
>
> Dittmore should be fired for stupidity. Its no wonder he annouced his
> retirement so quickly after the accident. He knew this would all come out..

rk has posed some questions several times on this message. They
addressed to you.
I have yet to see your reply to his questions. Perhaps you could
address them.

Sam

[John Maxson]

John Beaderstadt posts his continuing abuse from Earthlink.net.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)



John Beaderstadt > wrote in message
...
>
> First, which definition of "troll" are you using? There are plenty of
> people here who use "troll" incorrectly as a blanket term.
>
> Scott, for example, is someone with an idee fixe that can't blasted
> apart with dynamite. His purpose is not to cause trouble, but he is
> on a mission. The fact that he's personally abrasive doesn't help
> him. Otherwise, he's on-topic for the group and deserves a safe
> haven.
>
> Brad Guth and John Maxson are whackos, who are also on their
> respective missions. Brad is completely off-topic for the group and
> ideally would be banned; he is tolerated, somewhat, because he is
> more amusing than offensive. Maxson is on-topic but his manner
> (especially) makes him reprehensible and removes him from any
> consideration.

[John Maxson]

Mosley is at it again, compliments of Giganews and
Illuminati Online.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)


OM <om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_research _facility.org>
wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:51:27 -0700, Dale > wrote:
>
> >This seems to be "rk is the axis of evil" week :) I, for one, don't
> >consider him to be anything near a troll. I don't think scott is a
> >troll either. Trolls just say crap to get a reaction, without any
> >conviction regarding the subject...
>
> ...Ok, fine. **** it - scott isn't a ****ing troll. He's a paranoid
> with a vendetta against the group, and the only "safe haven" he's
> earned is a rubber room at the funny farm to be shared with John
> Maxson and scott's mom.
>
> Satisifed , Rhon?
>
> OM
>
> --
>
> "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
> his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
> poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
>
> - General George S. Patton, Jr

[John Maxson]

Michael Gardner > wrote in message
...
>
> That piece of metal was clearly explained as a sample cut
> from an unrelated bracket DURING the investigation.

Clear as mud *years afterward*, and only when Scott had
gone to Congress about it. The "explanation" is only that at
this point. Scott deserves a chance to challenge it through
additional discovery.

> Unless voltages are high,

What were they?

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)

[Lynndel Humphreys]

In a pure O2
> environment, such a spark still would have left CLEAR evidence -


No conspiracy. Sparks from teeth fillings can be hazardous in that
environment.




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

[Charleston]

"Michael Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> In article > "John Maxson"
> wrote:
> > Jay Windley > wrote in message > >
...
> > >
> > > In common aluminum, 2X to 5X magnification is sufficient
> > > to see evidence of tool *contact*.

IIRC, the support bracket does not look like it is aluminum. I'll double
check. IIRC from the Apollo 1 report they used a 50X light microscope to
examine the grain of the wiring and the bracket for evidence of changes
associated with the heat of an electrical arc; specifically they were
looking for evidence of melting, which shows up when you look at the grain
of the metal! I doubt that a saboteur would think of that unless he or she
were also a metallurgist.

> > Surely a saboteur would be aware of that and leave no trace.

Perhaps, but I wonder if you can figure out what really happened just by
looking at the support bracket. Wait, why did the saboteur leave the
support bracket in the first place, isn't it evidence?

Daniel

[John Maxson]

Well, you've managed to come full circle, Daddy-O, as I
knew you would when I responded. You really should do
something about that foot your mother nailed to the floor.

"Scott has mentioned the thinness of the insulation on
the wire needed to complete a lethal short-circuit. I
don't recall him saying that it happened that way,
however. I'm guessing that he has an open mind as to
all of the excruciating details involved."

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)


Michael Gardner > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "John Maxson" > wrote:
> > Michael Gardner > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Unless voltages are high,
> >
> > What were they?
>
> not the thousands required to jump through the insulation.
> In a pure O2 environment, such a spark still would have left
> CLEAR evidence - which has not been presented.

[John Maxson]

Did you check that with Herbs? He reminds me of Stanley
Pace. I've been told that on his way to board chairman of
General Dynamics (1985-1986, Centaur, etc.), Pace was
defense counsel for Al Capone.

Just prior to Mission 51-L, Pace said, "the customer is the
customer is the customer, and the customer is king and
what they want done will get done." Well, Reagan was king;
Beggs beat Meese's rap; and Shuttle-Centaur never flew.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)


OM <om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_research _facility.org>
wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:52:00 -0400, "Rhonda Lea Kirk"
> > wrote:
>
> >No, I'm not satisfied, Bob. I was expecting to be here for a
> >long time with the ultimate goal of becoming a worthwhile
> >contributor. Now I'm just one of many sci.space trolls.
>
> ...No, you're not a ****ing troll. Not even a celibate one, either.
> You've simply made a mistake and listened to the blatherings of a
> psychotic, and somehow fell for the bull****, hook, line and sinker.
> It's not too late to turn back from the abyss, Rhon. Just drop any and
> all Maxson trash like they were plutonium, put them in your killfiles,
> and come back to more normal topics. The sooner you accept that
> Maxsons, like Leopards, cannot change their spots or their yellow
> streaks, the easier it'll be.
>
> Bottom Line: You got bamboozled and befuddled. Happens all the time.
> The saving grace is when you realize this, and take steps to save
> yourself before it *is* too late.
>
>
> OM
>
> --
>
> "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
> his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
> poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
>
> - General George S. Patton, Jr

[John Maxson]

Strange bedfellows, the Human O-ring.

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)



Herb Schaltegger > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Rhonda Lea Kirk" > wrote:
>
> > No, I'm not satisfied, Bob. I was expecting to be here for a
> > long time with the ultimate goal of becoming a worthwhile
> > contributor. Now I'm just one of many sci.space trolls.
>
> Contributions can be made in many ways, not the least of which is
> reminding others' of their own consciences (or lack thereof).
>
> --
> Herb Schaltegger, Esq.
> Chief Counsel, Human O-Ring Society
> "I was promised flying cars! Where are the flying cars?!"
> ~ Avery Brooks

[John Maxson]

Michael Gardner > wrote in message
...
>
> How does mis-information and random bits of info help?

That's a question you should ask NASA. They are the experts
in that field. How much time have you spent out of your life
living and breathing around their PR guys?

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)

[Jay Windley]

"Michael Gardner" > wrote in message
...
|
| not the thousands required to jump through the insulation.

More like 28 VDC.

--
|
The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley
to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org

[Pyotomutt]

I could be wrong, but it seems he announced his retirement around the time it
was noted the flight recorder data indicated a heat spike during the ascent.

Tom

[Dan Foster]

In article >, Pyotomutt > wrote:
> I could be wrong, but it seems he announced his retirement around the time it
> was noted the flight recorder data indicated a heat spike during the ascent.

It should also be noted that he obtained a new job *prior* to the STS-107
launch but planned to at least see 107 end (successfully) then ride into
the sunset, so to speak... NASA had kept that generally low-key even before
STS-107.

So it's just a coincidence and no actual correlation between the two events
you observed.

-Dan

[ElleninLosAngeles]

> It should also be noted that he obtained a new job *prior* to the STS-107
> launch but planned to at least see 107 end (successfully) then ride into
> the sunset, so to speak... NASA had kept that generally low-key even before
> STS-107.
> -Dan

Is he in the new job or did it fall through? It was never announced in
the press where he went to.

[Dan Foster]

In article >, Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s" > wrote:
>
> http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/news/columbia/fr_sts107.pdf
> http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/news/columbia/fr_generic.pdf
>
> (As an aside, this is probably the first time the Flight Rules have ever been
> put online. When you access the documents via JSC's internal web, there's a
> notice that pops up every time you open a chapter saying how it's forbidden to
> post a copy of the Flight Rules in any format anywhere.)

I'm curious -- could anyone explain why dissemination has been historically
so highly undesirable? It's just to what degree the notice was, on the
per-chapter level, that was surprising. I'm just more used to a generic
catch-all restriction of 'thou shalt not post internal documents
externally' which is a common rule in organizations - is this what that is
from?

Incidentally, thanks for the links - much appreciated! They're interesting,
informative, and makes me much better appreciate the folks who's got it
memorized and applied to dynamic situations on the fly.

-Dan

[Dan Foster]

In article >, ElleninLosAngeles > wrote:
>> It should also be noted that he obtained a new job *prior* to the STS-107
>> launch but planned to at least see 107 end (successfully) then ride into
>> the sunset, so to speak... NASA had kept that generally low-key even before
>> STS-107.
>> -Dan
>
> Is he in the new job or did it fall through? It was never announced in
> the press where he went to.

Haven't heard a peep since NASA officially (re-)announced the resignation a
few months ago... but in February, a major news source _did_ name his new
employer. I can't, for the life of me, find that story or any references to
where he went... but it was to one of the top three aerospace companies
with a very large space presence (so his employment makes perfect sense,
considering he's got the insider view of NASA). Was Lockheed or someone
else - it was definitely a *major* aerospace firm. It would have to be, in
order to lure him away from his position of responsibility in NASA!

It's well known he's a practicing Mormon and someone mentioned he relocated
to Utah? There's some aerospace firms there such as Thiokol, and possibly
others. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with Utah. :)

I'm not even sure that he did in fact relocate to Utah or not... but I'm
pretty confident that he did accept a job at a major aerospace firm because
the story had some pretty good details and appeared to have sources
in-the-know.

I honestly can't imagine any reason why the new job might fall through,
despite the adverse publicity and dark cloud surrounding 107... in part,
because he came off so well in the media - evenhanded, honest, direct, etc.
Whatever his role in the accident, he's still got a large amount of hard
earned knowledge of NASA structure, operations, bidding processes, etc...
along with aerospace management experience. Would be a big asset for his
new employer.

That news story was the only one I'd ever seen that actually named his new
employer... so digging for it now is bit like trying to search for a needle
in a haystack!

-Dan

[ElleninLosAngeles]

Dan Foster wrote:

> Haven't heard a peep since NASA officially (re-)announced the resignation a
> few months ago... but in February, a major news source _did_ name his new
> employer. I can't, for the life of me, find that story or any references to
> where he went...
> It's well known he's a practicing Mormon and someone mentioned he relocated
> to Utah? There's some aerospace firms there such as Thiokol, and possibly
> others. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with Utah. :)
>
> I'm not even sure that he did in fact relocate to Utah or not...

Hi, Dan-
I remember the news story you are referring to. They said Dittemore
would be going to Thiokol in Utah. Someone on this board posted that
he would be moving to Utah partly because he's a Mormon and wants to
live there. But on the day of his resignation, after the press
briefing he told reporters he was still open to sifting thru offers
and wouldn't even bother to think about his personal opportunities
until after he was done working at NASA/his replacement had arrived
and settled in. So that made it sound as though he hadn't officially
accepted the rumored job at Thiokol in Utah, but he could have just
been saying that to be vague with reporters.
Does anyone know if Dittemore is still in Houston or has moved to a
new job in Utah? For some reason, I am imagining him still at home
without a new job, wandering around in his bathrobe, depressed:( I had
assumed if he got a new job, the new company would issue a press
release that would get picked up in the media - free press for them! I
thought that companies do this as a matter of course, releasing new
executive info to the local press, at least, but maybe I am wrong
about this or Dittemore wanted anonymity.
I'm wondering if he will ever come forward in the press, maybe after
the CAIB report, and defend himself against the criticism he has
gotten/tell his side of the story. He would have been a part of the
MMT Press Conference if he had still been at NASA, I guess. He didn't
appear on the ABC News Special, although he could have if he'd wanted
to, I'm sure.
Does anyone have the inside scoop on him? Does he have a new job? Does
he want to get his opinion on the disaster and it's aftermath out
there or is he planning on lying low?