Auto-destruct

[Martin Dunn]

"...The fact that the shuttle had an auto-destruct was astounding to the
Russians. The system, which enabled NASA ground controllers to blow up the
shuttle in the unlikely event it wandered off course and threatened to crash
into a populated area, was anathema the Russians, who angrily said no such
system had ever been incorporated into Russian spacecraft."

p. 253 Bryan Burrough Dragonfly: NASA and the crisis aboard the MIR
(HarperCollins, New York, 1998)

Is the above emphasis on *Russian*, as opposed to *Soviet*?

Martin

[Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)]

"Martin Dunn" > wrote in message
...
> "...The fact that the shuttle had an auto-destruct was astounding to the
> Russians. The system, which enabled NASA ground controllers to blow up the
> shuttle in the unlikely event it wandered off course and threatened to
crash
> into a populated area, was anathema the Russians, who angrily said no such
> system had ever been incorporated into Russian spacecraft."
>
> p. 253 Bryan Burrough Dragonfly: NASA and the crisis aboard the MIR
> (HarperCollins, New York, 1998)
>
> Is the above emphasis on *Russian*, as opposed to *Soviet*?


Not sure, but there are several slightly wrong details there.

NASA ground controllers had no ability to activate the range safety devices.
That's handled by range safety at the Cape which is generally an Air Force
officer.

Secondly, the shuttle itself (the orbiter) never had any such devices. Only
the ET and SRBs. And after Challenger, they were removed from the ET as
they were considered redundant. However, they were kept on the SRBs (and I
believe activated) since an SRB landing in Orlando (especially if there is a
lawyer's convention going on) would be a real bad day.

Also, there's rumors that such a device WAS in fact incorporated in
Garagin's craft expressly so he couldn't defect to the US.


>
> Martin
>
>

[Hallerb]

>
>Why does the shuttle need a destruct system? It seems to destroy itself okay
>without it.
>
>Hallerb

HEY THIS IMPERSONATOR IS FUNNY:)

Pre challenger auto destruct was on the orbiter. After challenger its only on
the boosters.

I know more than my impersonator!

[Hallerb]

>
>Pre challenger auto destruct was on the orbiter. After challenger its only on
>the boosters.

Actually I meant to say ET.

[Scott Hedrick]

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" > wrote in message
...
> However, they were kept on the SRBs (and I
> believe activated) since an SRB landing in Orlando (especially if there is
a
> lawyer's convention going on) would be a real bad day.

Not for the rest of us ;)
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[Scott Hedrick]

"Hallerb" > wrote in message
...
> I know more than my impersonator!

Facts not in evidence.
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[Scott Hedrick]

"Hallerb" > wrote in message
...

> Actually I meant to say ET.

Bob Haller, phone home.
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[Mark Martin]

"Martin Dunn" > wrote in message >...
> "...The fact that the shuttle had an auto-destruct was astounding to the
> Russians. The system, which enabled NASA ground controllers to blow up the
> shuttle in the unlikely event it wandered off course and threatened to crash
> into a populated area, was anathema the Russians, who angrily said no such
> system had ever been incorporated into Russian spacecraft."

Well, let's assume that this is all true so far. Why would the U.S.
have a self destruct onboard an orbiter, hypothetically? Because it's
extremely massive, and it launches from the edge of the most densely
populated state in the union. In the event that the stack goes wildly
off course and veers toward Florida, it'd be like dropping a jumbo-jet
on Ft. Lauderdale, only worse because of the potentially much higher
kinetic & chemical energy.

What about the Russian vehicles? Their stacks are typically much
less massive, and more importantly, they all launch from way out in
the middle of nowhere. The likelyhood of an out of control stack
landing on top of innocents is proportionately very much smaller.

And of course, there's the question of one's paradigms. In the U.S.
there's at least ostensibly some accountability. In the old Soviet
Union it was possible to accidentally extinguish a small village full
of powerless peasants, and all the authorities might do is officially
erase it from history.

-Mark Martin

[Pat Flannery]

Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:

>However, they were kept on the SRBs (and I
>believe activated) since an SRB landing in Orlando (especially if there is a
>lawyer's convention going on) would be a real bad day.
>

My pet "Bad Day" scenario is the Shuttle coming off the pad... and
something going terribly wrong with the guidance system- so that it
heads into the VAB "Doppleganger" style.... while another Shuttle's
stack is being assembled...with its SRBs in the VAB.

Pat

[LooseChanj]

On or about Thu, 25 Dec 2003 03:54:12 -0600, Pat Flannery >
made the sensational claim that:
> My pet "Bad Day" scenario is the Shuttle coming off the pad... and
> something going terribly wrong with the guidance system- so that it
> heads into the VAB "Doppleganger" style.... while another Shuttle's
> stack is being assembled...with its SRBs in the VAB.

You can't really appreciate this scenario. I watched the STS-99 launch from
the north parking lot of that there VAB. A line of hedges blocked the view of
the pad. My first thought when I saw the stack pop over those hedges was:

"Um, if that thing explodes, I'm f**ked."

3 miles is *A LOT* closer than I'd thought it was.
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[Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)]

"Hallerb" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Why does the shuttle need a destruct system? It seems to destroy itself
okay
> >without it.
> >
> >Hallerb
>
> HEY THIS IMPERSONATOR IS FUNNY:)
>
> Pre challenger auto destruct was on the orbiter. After challenger its only
on
> the boosters.

Granted you caught yourself, but this is wrong.

>
> I know more than my impersonator!

You sure about that?

[Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)]

"Pat Flannery" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
>
> >However, they were kept on the SRBs (and I
> >believe activated) since an SRB landing in Orlando (especially if there
is a
> >lawyer's convention going on) would be a real bad day.
> >
>
> My pet "Bad Day" scenario is the Shuttle coming off the pad... and
> something going terribly wrong with the guidance system- so that it
> heads into the VAB "Doppleganger" style.... while another Shuttle's
> stack is being assembled...with its SRBs in the VAB.

Ok, I have to admit, my "bad day" scenario is not original with me.

Do a google on "bad day", SRB, Henry Spencer, Orlando and select "I Feel
Lucky"



>
> Pat
>

[David Sander]

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:
>
> Do a google on "bad day", SRB, Henry Spencer, Orlando and select "I Feel
> Lucky"

Hell's bells, if that doesn't sum up a sizeable portion of s.s.h. then I
don't know what does...

:-)


David
--
per aspera ad astra

[Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home)]

Am Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:19:27 +0100 schrieb "Hans-Joachim Widmaier":

>>> Also, there's rumors that such a device WAS in fact incorporated in
>>> Garagin's craft expressly so he couldn't defect to the US.
>> I do recall Jamie Doran and Piers Bizony's Starman anecdote about his manual
>> controls being locked.
>James Shefter claims the same in "The Race", though Korolev is said to
>have given Gagarin the code needed to unlock the controls just before the
>flight. (This I may have read in another book. It's been some time since
>if read it.)

And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
another one, unnamed guy :-)

cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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[Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home)]

Am Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:19:27 +0100 schrieb "Hans-Joachim Widmaier":

>>> Also, there's rumors that such a device WAS in fact incorporated in
>>> Garagin's craft expressly so he couldn't defect to the US.
>> I do recall Jamie Doran and Piers Bizony's Starman anecdote about his manual
>> controls being locked.
>James Shefter claims the same in "The Race", though Korolev is said to
>have given Gagarin the code needed to unlock the controls just before the
>flight. (This I may have read in another book. It's been some time since
>if read it.)

And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
another one, unnamed guy :-)

cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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[OM]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:09:52 +0100, "Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker
(zili@home)" > wrote:

>And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
>another one, unnamed guy :-)

....There's a side to this that I find interesting. Everyone who was
involved in Gagarin's flight, from the pad crew all the way up to
everyone directly under Sergei Pavlovitch all now claim that they were
the person who gave Gagarin the unlock code (*). If even a tenth of
the claims weren't just boastful lies...well, I can see it now:

Ivan Protroodnik: "Psst! Comrade! Here's the unlock code if you need
to abort and go to manual flight! It's 1-"

Gagarin: <SIGH>"-4-5. Yes, I know. I swear to Bog that does not exist,
Comrade...the next loyal member of the Party who gives me the secret
unlock code will wind up eating UDMH for breakfast!"

Nikolai Syookii: "Excuse me? Comrade Gagarin? I have something I need
to tell you..."

(*) 1-4-5, IIRC.


OM

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his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

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[OM]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:09:52 +0100, "Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker
(zili@home)" > wrote:

>And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
>another one, unnamed guy :-)

....There's a side to this that I find interesting. Everyone who was
involved in Gagarin's flight, from the pad crew all the way up to
everyone directly under Sergei Pavlovitch all now claim that they were
the person who gave Gagarin the unlock code (*). If even a tenth of
the claims weren't just boastful lies...well, I can see it now:

Ivan Protroodnik: "Psst! Comrade! Here's the unlock code if you need
to abort and go to manual flight! It's 1-"

Gagarin: <SIGH>"-4-5. Yes, I know. I swear to Bog that does not exist,
Comrade...the next loyal member of the Party who gives me the secret
unlock code will wind up eating UDMH for breakfast!"

Nikolai Syookii: "Excuse me? Comrade Gagarin? I have something I need
to tell you..."

(*) 1-4-5, IIRC.


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

[Derek Lyons]

OM <om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_research _facility.org>
wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:09:52 +0100, "Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker
>(zili@home)" > wrote:
>
>>And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
>>another one, unnamed guy :-)
>
>...There's a side to this that I find interesting. Everyone who was
>involved in Gagarin's flight, from the pad crew all the way up to
>everyone directly under Sergei Pavlovitch all now claim that they were
>the person who gave Gagarin the unlock code (*). If even a tenth of
>the claims weren't just boastful lies...well, I can see it now:

Which raises the question of just how so many people (the 1/10th) got
hold of the supposedly 'secret' code....

D.
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Corrections, comments, and additions should be
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[Derek Lyons]

OM <om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_research _facility.org>
wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:09:52 +0100, "Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker
>(zili@home)" > wrote:
>
>>And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
>>another one, unnamed guy :-)
>
>...There's a side to this that I find interesting. Everyone who was
>involved in Gagarin's flight, from the pad crew all the way up to
>everyone directly under Sergei Pavlovitch all now claim that they were
>the person who gave Gagarin the unlock code (*). If even a tenth of
>the claims weren't just boastful lies...well, I can see it now:

Which raises the question of just how so many people (the 1/10th) got
hold of the supposedly 'secret' code....

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
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discussion.

[Jonathan Silverlight]

In message >, "Heinrich
Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home)" > writes
>Am Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:19:27 +0100 schrieb "Hans-Joachim Widmaier":
>
>>>> Also, there's rumors that such a device WAS in fact incorporated in
>>>> Garagin's craft expressly so he couldn't defect to the US.
>>> I do recall Jamie Doran and Piers Bizony's Starman anecdote about his manual
>>> controls being locked.
>>James Shefter claims the same in "The Race", though Korolev is said to
>>have given Gagarin the code needed to unlock the controls just before the
>>flight. (This I may have read in another book. It's been some time since
>>if read it.)
>
>And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
>another one, unnamed guy :-)

For some reason that reminds me of the scene in "2010" when Dr Chandra
tells Heywood that he disconnected the cut-out months ago.
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[Jonathan Silverlight]

In message >, "Heinrich
Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home)" > writes
>Am Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:19:27 +0100 schrieb "Hans-Joachim Widmaier":
>
>>>> Also, there's rumors that such a device WAS in fact incorporated in
>>>> Garagin's craft expressly so he couldn't defect to the US.
>>> I do recall Jamie Doran and Piers Bizony's Starman anecdote about his manual
>>> controls being locked.
>>James Shefter claims the same in "The Race", though Korolev is said to
>>have given Gagarin the code needed to unlock the controls just before the
>>flight. (This I may have read in another book. It's been some time since
>>if read it.)
>
>And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
>another one, unnamed guy :-)

For some reason that reminds me of the scene in "2010" when Dr Chandra
tells Heywood that he disconnected the cut-out months ago.
--
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Remove spam and invalid from address to reply.

[Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home)]

Am Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:31:32 -0600 schrieb "OM":

>>And Gagarin replied to him, that he had already got the code by
>>another one, unnamed guy :-)
>
>...There's a side to this that I find interesting. Everyone who was
>involved in Gagarin's flight, from the pad crew all the way up to
>everyone directly under Sergei Pavlovitch all now claim that they were
>the person who gave Gagarin the unlock code (*). If even a tenth of
>the claims weren't just boastful lies...well, I can see it now:

....and that leads to the question, who could and who should have had
knowledge about the code in reality.

Let us count the claims - and the possibilities.

Clearly Korolew knew it, but who else? Some people at the tracking
stations? Some of his deputies? Mishin or Chertok? What about Bushuew,
Piljugin, Rjasanski, Glushko? Or Kamanin, Keldych, or even Breshnew or
Chruschtschow?

Who could have been a possible 'leak'?

cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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[Hallerb]

>Auto-destruct

If gagarin had defected I wonder what the effect would have been?

[Dale]

On 30 Dec 2003 01:34:38 GMT, (Hallerb) wrote:

>If gagarin had defected I wonder what the effect would have been?

Hmmm, turning one of the USSR's most prestigious accomplishments
into a huge embarrassment wouldn't have exactly been a boost to
stability in the world during those tense times. It's probably best that
he didn't. But I suspect the USSR would have tried to spin it into some
kind of involuntary thing, such as an accident, or even intentional foul
play by the US, that landed him in the West. They would have publicly
demanded his return. We would have ended up having to trade Jose
Jimenez for him in the end.

Dale

Did you write "would have", Bob? LOL :)

[Scott Hedrick]

"Hallerb" > wrote in message
...
> If gagarin had defected I wonder what the effect would have been?

If hallerb would do some research before posting, I wonder what the effect
would be?

If he had defected, he'd probably still be alive.
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